00:00.00 archaeoteacup Hi you're listening to episode 13 of and my trow where we look at the fantastic side of archaeology and the archaeological side of fantasy I'm tilly and today we have a slightly different quest ahead of us to usual so before we get into it ash what is your current opinion on. 00:08.61 Ashleigh Airey And I mash. 00:19.97 archaeoteacup Wizards or I should say what do you picture when you think of a wizard. 00:24.80 Ashleigh Airey Oh um I think of a very old man with a very long beard and a pointy hat and usually the hat has stars on it I think that's Disney. 00:28.64 archaeoteacup Listen. 00:37.10 archaeoteacup Um, but I mean actually that's pretty you know, but the the long beard the old man the tall hat I feel like that's pretty universal in a lot of cases like I Also can't really think of many wizards depicted especially in fantasy that are not. Some form of that. 00:54.10 Ashleigh Airey Yeah I mean even the kind of opposite of that which like Harry Potter where he's a young boy um has an old man was it in it. Yeah, so yeah, it's always an older guy little spectacles. You know he probably has a punch on for cheese. 01:00.25 archaeoteacup Exactly Yeah, they have only. 01:10.43 archaeoteacup Right? Obsessed with food in some way seems like it just like a a little old man and then you're like oh no, yeah. 01:12.18 Ashleigh Airey Ah, something yeah obsessive food and yeah bit of a comudgeon like kind of character or he's a bit grumpy. 01:25.47 archaeoteacup Right? It's the grumpy and this is something that we're going to delve into later because I feel like the sort of grumpiness and the lack of patience is something that is also quite typical of of sort of fantastical wizards. But so you've already mentioned Harry Potter I mean that's quite a famous one in terms of wizards. But ah, what other books have you have you read that kind of feature. Feature wizards or what's your favorite wizardly depiction in fantasy. 01:47.71 Ashleigh Airey Um, oh that's a good question I Obviously well there's little rings. You can't You can't get around. Um I see gandalve. But I I Well I'm a big um D and D fan. So I do like elmanster from. 01:50.88 archaeoteacup Of course I mean yes, 4 02:03.79 archaeoteacup It. 02:03.87 Ashleigh Airey From the dean d kind of world. He's the same kind of character. He's you know, an amazing wizard. Um, and you can see like his whole life through it in the dean and d books as well and kind of the law. Um, and but I really like um, uprooted by Naomi novik. 02:16.91 archaeoteacup Um, is. 02:23.20 Ashleigh Airey Um, ah actually that was a the dragon um is is quite is very young I mean he's old like but he's you know looks youthful and young. Um and he's a kind of romantic still grumpy character though. Um, so yeah, that's one of probably my favorite. 02:32.30 archaeoteacup Um, ah okay. 02:40.47 archaeoteacup And in terms of wizards I'm trying to think because all of those ones you mentioned and they're sort of similar in terms of like Gandalf as well. It's kind of the power is just sort of unstoppable like there isn't really a limit. 02:41.15 Ashleigh Airey Depictions of a wizard. 02:58.14 Ashleigh Airey No, no, it's like they're connected to magic and in every way possible and they choose They're kind of a morality figure aren't they they choose to if you're if you're an evil wizard. You're not a wizard anymore. You're a sorcerer and then. 02:58.21 archaeoteacup On the power necessarily that wizards can have is there in some way. Yeah, exactly? Yeah yeah. 03:14.27 archaeoteacup Well. 03:17.60 Ashleigh Airey If you're a wizard. You're on the side of good usually but you don't You also are very unhelpful like if you think of gandal if you just buggers off. Yeah you kind of like the godly. 03:23.49 archaeoteacup Um, it you you never outright help you're just like ah well maybe that cushion will be good for your back, but maybe it will not only you can decide and forget to say give me the liish. 03:34.17 Ashleigh Airey Yeah, exactly So they they they kind of the the idea that the kind of divine personification of of magic or Morality in a story and what about you though I'm guessing the. 03:39.66 archaeoteacup The. 03:47.86 archaeoteacup Know have have a guess have a guess it does oh forgiveness who would a guess Well actually so one of the like miniseries within the discword Universe focuses on the wizards. Um. 03:51.72 Ashleigh Airey Um, does it happen to be a Terry pratch. But oh yeah, it's. 04:03.16 archaeoteacup In disworld and it's I mean I think that that's sort of what inspired me a little bit when I was preparing this episode because I think it's just the perfect representation of academia is kind of a bunch of old men running around at a university just sort of eating lots of food and. Pretending that they're doing a lot of good and noble things and they can do the stuff if they're push you know if push comes to shove. They know what they do it and they have that experience but you wouldn't know it kind of thing and I I do have a quote um from the last continent which I think sort of sums it up nicely. Um, so ponder stbbins who's in this one is like a young wizard who's sort of just starting and he's the only one who kind of does any real work around the place. So it's when he was a boy ponder stbbins had imagined that wizards would be powerful Democrats Gods able to change the whole world at the flick of a finger and then he'd grown up and found out that they were tiresome old men. Who worried about the state at their feet and in harm's way would even bicker about the origin of the phrase in harm's way it had never struck him that evolution works in all kinds of ways there were still quite deep scars in old buildings that showed what happened when you had the other kind of wizard. So. It's kind of and and the way that it develops. Um. Within that universe as it starts off with the sort of classic. You have a lot of wizards at this university and you basically it's dead man's shoes to progress so you have to basically kill whoever whoever is above you in the hierarchy in order to get their position and then that sort of changes when the new aunt chancellor arrives because he is. 05:27.45 Ashleigh Airey Oh. 05:34.62 archaeoteacup Ah, yeah, bit more no nonsense and no one can kill him basically and so then at some point they all sort of give up and they just kind of shuffle into their existing positions and then that's how they become a bit more sort of silly. But so I think that it's It's a great depiction because it shows that they can be powerful but indeed it shows that at the end of the day they're just old men who. Like their comforts and are a bit indeed sort of selfish and you know sure maybe they do care on some level but you don't know how much they actually care about people or whether it's just that they want the world to be in order so that they can have some rest you know. 06:11.66 Ashleigh Airey Yeah, a slightly triggering I think we all know someone? Um, yeah, and it's interesting that wizards are always men. You cannot have a female wizard a female with as I Well a female magic user is either a witch. 06:13.81 archaeoteacup Yeah, ah exactly right. 06:28.17 Ashleigh Airey Or the dark side a sorcer. Oh and like we should just maybe change this into a Terry project. 06:31.59 archaeoteacup Just saying that's also a very project book about that because because into the dis into that tilly talks about diswild and ash frantically tries to get her back on tracks and no because there's what about because it's the seventh son of the seventh son becomes the ah. Ah wizard. But um, what if the seventh son is actually a seventh daughter and that's what happens in 1 of the books basically and then yeah, it's as you would. It's called it's it's called equal rights. It is very good talking about. You know it's one of Terry Pratt's earlier ones. So it's a bit less subtle than his later ones but still, it's talking basically about gender equality in that respect. 06:50.65 Ashleigh Airey Um, oh my God They didn't think of that did they. 07:07.97 Ashleigh Airey Oh. 07:09.15 archaeoteacup Um, which is quite interesting that in that thing. But yes, but so so yeah, there's there's a bit of a variation but indeed I think we can see that it's it's always that always men always not always but mostly old or old in some way like old with. Experience or you know even if they seem useful and I mean you even have if we go outside of kind of fantasy fiction like and look at well it is fantasy fictions. But it's sort of more historic folklore. Um I guess so of course you have the famous one which is Merlin um from King Arthur 07:39.10 Ashleigh Airey Oh. 07:42.85 archaeoteacup That one again, you don't really know whether he's helping because he likes Arthur or whether he's helping just because you know he he wants england to go back to the way it should be and you know right? You know? Basically so yeah and then you have um, sort of ah. 07:52.43 Ashleigh Airey Oh God Make England Great again. Ah. 08:02.16 archaeoteacup A lot of figures who I think that Merlin's the only one who's kind of spoken about as a wizard in that respect but you have a lot of figures from other kinds of folklore where the word wizards not necessarily use but there's definitely similarities. So for example in japanese folklore. You have a figure known as now I apologize for my mispronunciation abbe nor sayai. Um, who is again an elderly gentleman. Um and he sort of has this this power and this otherworldliness because it's assumed that his father was human but his mother was a Fox spirit and that gives him a kind of extra level of of kind of dimension and ah extra extra dimension of magic and yeah that that side of things. And then you have the oldest recorded magician and comes from ancient egypt papyrus which is a dede. Um dey didy I'm not sure how you pronounce it? Um, and yes, but he's he's referred to more as a magician in the translations which kind of has a different. 08:52.31 Ashleigh Airey Dd yeah. 08:59.83 Ashleigh Airey I mean Magician makes sounds very modern and I mean wonder if it's just a translation in that way. 09:00.20 archaeoteacup Ring ring to it like Magician versus Wizard. Um I Wonder if it's a translation or if it's about because it seemed to me that he was doing more sort of almost magic tricks like not necessarily. Big powerful Kingdom helping things but more sort of mystical. Yeah tricks I Guess is yeah yeah, so. 09:17.50 Ashleigh Airey Um. 09:22.15 Ashleigh Airey Yeah, yeah, well the Egyptians liked that kind of entertainment didn't they and they had like magicians and um, but sometimes they were often Magician architects as well too. So yeah. 09:34.51 archaeoteacup Um, true and I mean I guess you do have like Gandalf as well. You know and at the beginning everyone just thinks he's a magician you know they see him more as a magician at some point like in Hoberton and things and then at some point you realize oh wow actually he's quite powerful. So yeah, exactly. 09:41.28 Ashleigh Airey Yeah. 09:49.25 Ashleigh Airey He's very powerful. 09:53.93 archaeoteacup Um, but yes, so 1 thing that we sort of have touched on a little bit already. So a lot of the the concepts about wizardry come from them being men that are yeah in power in some way and I mean most actually fantasy depictions I'm trying to think now. Apart from Harry Potter and Terry Pratchett it's usually individuals right? They're not like anded together. 10:17.84 Ashleigh Airey Yeah, oh they they are in some way like they have a collective conclave of like wizards but they are usually like individual journeymen almost um that are connected by magic and they know each other if they're in that world. Um. 10:26.41 archaeoteacup And yeah. 10:35.21 Ashleigh Airey But they were always kind of like I don't know I always see them as like in a tower with load of books and a cat you know or like a little dragon or something. Um, yeah, tiny dragon. Ah you know so I think they they know each other like if you look at like Gandalf like there's also the. 10:38.12 archaeoteacup Yeah, yeah. 10:44.70 archaeoteacup Yeah, all fuck you. 10:54.44 Ashleigh Airey Kind of um, different was it raagast and and all the other kind of wizards that are going around. Ah yeah, the brown was a the yeah so there's lots of different categories almost um and they all know each other it's it's it is kind of like archeology. 10:57.59 archaeoteacup Yeah, um, and of course Sarahman and yeah, there was the blue the blue wizards and brown wizards. Yeah, yeah, different hierarchies. 11:14.11 Ashleigh Airey Anyway, because I mean if you're a wizard. You probably know other wizards and like you know you can step outside and archaeology is very small world and you'll talk to someone look go I know an archeologist you're okay here are they and you'll know them. It's a small world. So I feel like it would be the same for wizards. 11:20.79 archaeoteacup Put it. 11:28.62 archaeoteacup So especially if you're at that level like professors basically right like they're basically the wizards of archaeology so home unfortunately look like that. But if you think of. 11:32.83 Ashleigh Airey Yeah, yeah, they'll be like oh yeah, I've heard of tilly. 11:42.95 Ashleigh Airey Yeah, ah. 11:44.79 archaeoteacup Yeah, like the big names in archeology like even I was chatting to someone the other day and she was saying yeah didda and um, you know I also studied you swear and I went oh who was your professor and she said oh sillvie Beleys and I was like oh Wow you know because I've read so much from sylvie beries. You know it's if you're with in a particular. 11:57.80 Ashleigh Airey Fear. 12:01.29 archaeoteacup So you can imagine that with wizards you know like oh what? which wizard did you apprnice under. Oh well I apprenticed under this but I mean he definitely is a is He's definitely a wizard who's just pretending to be human like. 12:04.70 Ashleigh Airey Yes I see Ian Hodder I that like I feel like he's a wizard. 12:18.20 Ashleigh Airey Ah, but yeah, he was like kind of a mythical figure almost for us at University We used to do hoder hunts every so often. So we'd hide a little picture of hoder around the department and you'd go and like find hotter. It's usually a drinking game but still. 12:19.75 archaeoteacup Right. 12:31.24 archaeoteacup Which we should point out by the way. So Ian Hodter is professor Ian Hodter I actually am not sure where he's working right now but I can very quickly look that up because um, he was working I know on the chattle hoyog. Um site Stanford. 12:34.83 Ashleigh Airey Yeah. 12:49.14 Ashleigh Airey Um, he's a there we go. 12:51.16 archaeoteacup Course yeah, he is still at Stanford yeah um Stanford University and he's british and he is a very famous in archeology for being a big proponent of what's known as postprocessual archeology which I think we might get into later. Ah, maybe. 13:05.10 Ashleigh Airey This the letter bed. 13:09.66 archaeoteacup Um, so ah, but yes, he's he's basically one of those names that you learn in you're bound to learn in the first year of an archeology degree. You're bound to come have to read some in hotter. Um, it's just sort of pretty standard. Um, he's done so much. 13:23.70 Ashleigh Airey Yep, yeah, he does I think does he not and do entanglement like thing human theory and but yeah, he's like a big name big name. He would be the elllminster of archaeology. Yeah. 13:28.40 archaeoteacup That's entanglement theory. Yeah. 13:35.95 archaeoteacup Yeah, would he be the gandel of archaeology probably not. 13:37.98 Ashleigh Airey And think I think Gordon yeah I no no I think gordon v child would be the the gandalf and I think Ian Honder would be thell minster. No, he would not be Sarah man he would not. 13:49.48 archaeoteacup Oh the sarahma. Ah. 13:55.17 archaeoteacup Or radigas I mean I see him a bit as ara I apologize Ian Hoter um slightly and hoter I think actually if if you are listening to this. We are big fans. Um, but you know unfortunately when you become a celebrity you are going to be. 14:00.13 Ashleigh Airey Yeah, we So we just we love you. 14:11.49 archaeoteacup Open to some sort of Ridicule I suspect especially on a little archaeology market but Iy your your reference to the fact that indeed sort of the wizarding world is almost similar to academia in that respect like you definitely have those hierarchies. You definitely have those big names who know each other. 14:15.64 Ashleigh Airey It's it's kind kind. 14:31.34 archaeoteacup And who are also kind of a little bit I mean like the quote from Terry Pratcher you know who would bicker about the origin of the phrase in harm's way when they were in harm's way I can see archaeology professors doing that you know bickering about definitions of terminologies and all of that kind of thing. Um and also. 14:43.91 Ashleigh Airey Absolutely. 14:50.74 archaeoteacup Probably and especially at the higher levels of Archeology. It is still quite male dominated. Although actually I read some interesting reports the other day for a blog post I was writing about ah gender um dynamics in within the field of archeology and actually in a lot of places there are ever so slightly more women now. Than men. However, this is just in on average if you look in the higher um higher hierarchical levels. Shall we say of of the wizarding world then it is still fairly male dominated. 15:24.91 Ashleigh Airey Yeah, it's this I Remember there was a statistic I can't remember the actual statistics I can't say statistic statistic that came out this that it's hard S is a hard for me. Um, and um, yeah. 15:31.28 archaeoteacup Um, so sister is this statistics. Just. 15:37.66 Ashleigh Airey And it basically said that there was more women in fieldwork. But then in managerial positions it was men and and I think with Academia it's very similar to the wizarding world. Um, you get you get a position you get it for life type. Really I mean the. 15:41.93 archaeoteacup Yeah. 15:49.66 archaeoteacup Yeah, yeah. 15:53.63 Ashleigh Airey I remember there was 1 guy in our department that had been there 60 years and he just lived in this one room and did den know chronology. So like sounds great to me. Um, and like even when he retired he didn't leave so you know it's that kind of you keep that position. You're well known, you've built your your um you know. 16:12.60 archaeoteacup Yeah, well and especially and now and like with the previous generation I feel because that was when it all kind of really properly got go I mean archeology's been around for a long time but I feel like the previous generation which we're also go to talk about a little bit in a second. 16:13.32 Ashleigh Airey Profile as a professor as a lecturer as well. So people know you. 16:31.11 archaeoteacup Was really the ones where it kind of started the critical archaeological research and all of that kind of thing and so that's when people indeed started making names proper names for themselves and then you have all these bottlenecks now because you have wizards in these positions and it's you can't. 16:43.10 Ashleigh Airey Ah. 16:47.75 archaeoteacup Get that position because they're they're them and there's no way that you can just fire them I mean yeah, but probably at some point someone will have to. 16:52.15 Ashleigh Airey Yeah, like no one could replace Ian Hotter you know like will some will have to. They'll be the next Ian Hutter and it'll be me. No I heard to here Ashley will be Ian Hotter um 17:00.42 archaeoteacup You heard it here. Everyone. But. 17:07.88 Ashleigh Airey Yeah, so and then third the funny thing is as well with departments I think they also have their squabbles with each other too. So and you get get that kind of gossip and I feel like like wizards would be very similar like you just know Gandalf's got something to say about raagga like you know, like yeah. 17:14.70 archaeoteacup Guests are the politics. Of course of course well on the topic of which so before we get into this scenario I Just want to do a quick Check. Do you have your fireproof robes on. 17:31.27 Ashleigh Airey Oh gosh. Um, no I'll go and put those on. 17:33.32 archaeoteacup Okay, we'll be back in a minute then.