00:00.87 Jess Blue. 00:01.70 archaeoteacup Okay, just say something. Yeah, looks good all right? So um, maybe ah, you had so you would ah the bit about them being human remains you had said already. So I believe that we are Aiding. Um. Because we're looking about and talking about Them. You'd sort of said that part but then that was then you went out. Um, So yeah, so that was the point where it cut out. So You said that part so that was good but then after that it cut out. So Maybe if you take it away from there. 00:23.87 Jess Then that cut out. Okay. 00:32.15 Jess Um, okay I'm I might I might just say again just again. Okay, um. 00:37.42 archaeoteacup Yeah I mean feel go back to the previous part as well. If you want to resay it and just in case. 00:44.63 Jess Um, yeah, might just start from beginning honestly. 00:46.43 archaeoteacup Okay, let's do it go for it I'm gonna mute myself so that you don't hear Fa screaming in the background. 00:52.51 Jess I think I That's why I didn't realize that I'd left is because suddenly I couldn't hear you and I was like oh it's fine. It's continuing to be fine. Everything's fine and then I was like wait all but. 01:07.22 archaeoteacup Ah, okay, I'll be myself quickly. Oh no, it's a okay yeah I'll be I'll be meeting myself but I'll try and pop it occasionally to go Oh really or something so you know I'm still there. Okay, take it away take it away. 01:13.58 Jess Um, know. Yeah yeah, but. 01:19.69 Jess Um, definitely a kind of ah contentious question. Um, and definitely dependent on the origin of the mummies. Um, as we've talked about mummies come from all over across the globe from Peru Egypt Korea even the u k. Um, and while some are deliberately created like the egyptian ones. There are some accidental ones like um the bog bodies or the ice bodies. Um, but for egyptian mummies because their beliefs hinged on the yeah yeah bog bodies. Ah. 01:43.90 archaeoteacup Ah I was thinking you K But of course yeah, the bug buddies. Yeah. 01:50.49 Jess Ah, for Egyptian mummies because their beliefs hinged on the continued existence of their names and bodies or at least their bodies to make them into divinities. Um I Personally think that um, we're sort of aiding in their afterlife by caring for looking at and talking about them. Obviously we don't necessarily know all of their names. But I feel like there must be some sort of gray area. That's like well at least they're being talked about in some capacity. Um, but for other types of human remains on display in museum. 02:12.90 archaeoteacup Um. 02:17.63 archaeoteacup Oh that's a really nice idea. Actually I like that. 02:24.90 Jess For other types of human remains on display in museums it's a tough call um on the 1 hand you want sort of the educational aspects both relating to human anatomy and also different cultural practices around human remains and death on the other hand, some viewers are just looking for a ghoulish spectacle and so. 02:41.88 archaeoteacup You Yeah you a mumy? Yeah yeah I am yeah right? yeah. 02:43.76 Jess You know they just want to go the mummies are creepy. We use. Let's go look at the creepy mummies. Um, and while you would like everybody to be respectful. You're not going to get that. Um, you can't force people to be respectful. Um there's also the sort of. Observation I've made are I think some other people have maybe made this too. But um, our general cultures today is sort of death Avoidant um, and we don't necessarily like talking about death or viewing or witnessing or like I mean. 03:11.94 archaeoteacup Her. 03:20.10 Jess I Don't think any of us particularly want to experience death but ah or like be death adjacent. But um I think it's really important because it was so. 03:21.27 archaeoteacup Right? yes. 03:27.51 archaeoteacup Death adjacent. Sorry it's a very serious topic. It's a very good for you breakking. But the the phrasing Yes, but anyway carry on sorry. 03:38.48 Jess Yes, Ah, yeah, death adjacent. Um, um, so ah so I feel like it's I mean it was so ah, integral to so many cultures of like how they dealt with death and how they. Prepared for their afterlife and how they prepared their loved ones for afterlife and everything. So I think it's really important that we ah we don't avoid it instinctively just because we don't necessarily like it and ah. 03:58.60 archaeoteacup Um, yeah. 04:06.80 archaeoteacup Um, right? Yeah, fair enough. 04:13.10 Jess A lot of people have brought up that you know ah like everything should be returned to the the original country that something has come from um and so egyptian mummies are ah a fairly popular topic for that. Um, a lot of people think that mummy should be brought back to Egypt. Um, and for the most part if. 04:21.72 archaeoteacup Um, just yes. 04:31.71 Jess The objects were brought legally which is to say um they followed the laws at the time. Um, the Egyptian government is really quite happy with them staying wherever they've ended up as long as they're appropriately cared for or at least we hope? Um, yeah. 04:31.91 archaeoteacup Um, was a. 04:49.24 archaeoteacup Okay, yeah, yeah. 04:50.98 Jess Um, and unless they're royal. They don't really mind. Um I mean obviously we could go into like some like case studies of like the rosetta stone or the bus of nefertiti and how those should be brought back to Egypt and there's all sorts of things. 04:58.60 archaeoteacup Okay. 05:07.98 archaeoteacup Yes. 05:10.91 Jess Yes, we can. We could fill a whole old podcast series about that. Um, so I don't want to like go too crazy. Ah, but for the most part I mean some of my friends have you know, specifically said that they don't want to see Egyptian mummies and museums because they feel like they should be. 05:14.20 archaeoteacup Yeah, say. Yeah. 05:28.65 archaeoteacup Um, doesn't. 05:30.13 Jess Sent back and it's disreified and all this stuff and so I have mostly told them that um if they feel weird about looking at a different mummies either I mean don't go or just eat with them with respect and understand that their beliefs differ from ours and then research until you feel less uncomfortable. Um, because I think is. 05:45.11 archaeoteacup Um, yeah, yeah. 05:49.54 Jess The more that we educate ourselves the more we can sort of understand how they may have felt as opposed to us and so we can sort of go from there. So anyway. Um so yeah, so it's just a tough question to answer and it's a little bit. Ah. 05:57.33 archaeoteacup Yeah, oh yeah, love. 06:09.70 Jess Sort of a personal. There's only like personal answers. Really yeah. 06:12.72 archaeoteacup Yeah, yeah, it's one of those things because like you say in terms of ethics and things I guess indeed the like you say maybe they would have actually appreciated having them displayed and having them cared for and interacted with in that respect. So yeah, it's. 06:27.10 Jess Yeah, and obviously we can't ask them so we kind of just have to guess the best that we can and exactly yes yes. 06:31.35 archaeoteacup No. Well we we could when we do our time travel trip we can we can check and see what they think. Yeah, that sounds like a great idea. Ok well, we're going to have a very quick break now. So that those listening can have an opportunity to top up their tea but we will be back very very soon. Okay, and Rachel sorry I'm not going to pause this one and start a new one because I'm paranoid that is' going to like mess up again. 06:43.14 Jess Fish is hidden. 07:00.55 archaeoteacup Um, and we're like on a good roll Now. So I'm I'm not I'm just gonna you're gonna have to cut this bit out and start section three like now I'm going to start section three now. Welcome back Everyone I hope the teacups and al fuller and the biscuits jar emptier. So ah, we did already talk a little bit. About sort of your directionality and and how that kind of all worked in terms of your experience. But maybe we could go into a little more detail now in case, anyone who's listening in is going hey I want to I'm interested in egyptology and I thought I was interested in forensic anthropology. But maybe I want to go in a different direction. So. I Mean we've talked about how you kind of change direction a little bit throughout your career so far how easy was that direction changed to do I mean you mentioned that the sort of the last one was you had to do their degree because you needed the the job and all of those kind of things but I mean from a practical or administrative standpoint How easy was it to. Change track. 07:57.59 Jess Um, it's always been sort of kind of easy I guess I mean it it helped that I picked subjects that had transferbal skills and so it was fairly easy to pivot. Um, but Mimi who I mentioned earlier Mimi Levek um has been particularly helpful because she originally. 08:07.66 archaeoteacup That's. 08:14.82 Jess Was an yeah um archeologist. Um and did conservation for archeology and so um, we sort of I sort of followed her ever so slightly? um I just have a little bit more skeletal knowledge but not by much she is. She is really good. So um. 08:16.11 archaeoteacup Oh okay. 08:25.90 archaeoteacup The. 08:33.10 Jess Yeah, so it's just ah yeah, it's always been sort of transferable and easy to to switch over. 08:40.40 archaeoteacup Okay, oh that's good. That's nice to know so try to try to go for things that if you would change you would still have something to kind of fall back on which yeah is a good. Ah good way to do it and in terms of sorry to. 08:46.65 Jess Um, yeah, yeah, think about the the difference skills. He. 08:57.40 archaeoteacup But and so in terms of um, the so obviously you came from sort of a different side of things and luckily you had those transferable skills. But for people who might be listening in who were who are just starting starting on their journey. What is the kind of more. Ah, the normal process. Shall we say of the Koger an object conservator. 09:16.91 Jess Um, I mean if you're really really at the beginning then I would say do an undergrad in either art conservation if that's truly what you want to do um or try to sort of double major if you can in art and science. Um, and. 09:33.40 archaeoteacup Oop. 09:33.16 Jess Get as broad an education in those as you can because that's basically what our conservation is. It's just a combination of art and science. Um, because you have to understand chemicals and yeah, exactly um and then um, yeah, and so then you can. 09:39.80 archaeoteacup Nice, The perfect couple. 09:53.30 Jess Go into internships and pre-program internships and you could get a masters Um, which is what gets you the better jobs. Um do post program internships and fellowships and hopefully you find a job at some point and obviously ah. 10:08.45 archaeoteacup Okay. 10:11.47 Jess All of this sort of depends on which country you're looking at and what education system you're in um, but yeah, there's there's pretty much options and in most countries I believe or nearby I mean Europe is just sort of nearby at a certain point but but. 10:21.33 archaeoteacup Um, ok, ah is just across the pond right? That's the phrase we use. It's very very close and and would you say it's quite a sort of competitive. 10:31.50 Jess Um, yeah, exactly exactly? yeah. 10:38.97 archaeoteacup Area to get into I mean are there if you if you if you get your degree if you do your internships or I mean can you get internships or um, is it already quite competitive at the sort of training level. 10:51.30 Jess Um, the pre-program internships I Think at least when I was doing mine which was sort of unofficial um was fairly easy to get because a lot of places don't list their internship Opportunities. You have to go and contact them. Um. So if ever you want to do something I mean it doesn't even have to be art conservation or egyptology or whatever but like go intern in it because you you want to understand what the day to day activities are like because I didn't understand that I didn't actually like forensic anthropology or archeology because it was a lot of repetitive tasks that didn't vary that much. 11:09.44 archaeoteacup Um, ah. 11:15.38 archaeoteacup Look. 11:28.95 Jess From day to day and I got so bored so quickly. But our conservation is different every single day So I don't get bored typically um but I wouldn't have known that had I not interned in it. So I think whatever you're trying to get into or whatever you're interested in just gon in it because ah, they'll just. 11:31.29 archaeoteacup Right. 11:41.10 archaeoteacup Oh yeah, that. 11:48.71 Jess Take you I mean people will always take cheap or free help. So. 11:54.35 archaeoteacup True. Yeah, very very true and I mean because you sort of changed ah direction so Much. Do you regret? not having originally started with art conservation or do you find that what you've learned in your previous jobs. I mean you mentioned transferable skills already. Can you use them. In your current position as well or is it just sort of indirect skills in that way. 12:20.22 Jess Um I Guess in some ways I do wish I had started in our conservation because then maybe I'd be farther along in my career and then that would be nice, but ultimately oh no I'm still here here I'm here I'm here. Okay. 12:26.34 archaeoteacup Hello. 12:31.96 archaeoteacup On No, you're back again, you're back again. Okay, it's a good start again start again? Yeah yeah, yeah there. 12:37.97 Jess Okay, where was I Um, ah in some ways. Yes I Do wish I that I started in our conservation. Um, it would have been nice to like maybe be farther along in my career at this point or you know maybe I could have more like finally aligned my. Education to support a really strong base in our conservation but at the same time. Um, so many of the skills that I learned in my previous degrees are transferable. Um, like I did a lot of sciences and forensics which is really important for our conservation and then. 13:07.75 archaeoteacup Yeah. 13:13.20 Jess Um, my archeology background um has been really helpful in working with egyptian mummies which I have worked on um, technically only 1 at this point but still anyway I have worked on them. Um, and it's ah helpful for like object handling because if you're used to handling a you know two Thousand year olds 13:22.48 archaeoteacup Ah, exciting. 13:32.56 Jess Anglo -saxon brooch that has just been excavated then you can handle a one hundred year old bos. So that's that's an also like a different kind of transferable skill. Um and I had a background in art when I was younger. So I've always sort of done art and so I didn't really. 13:36.19 archaeoteacup Ah. 13:43.50 archaeoteacup Yeah. 13:48.63 archaeoteacup Okay. 13:51.60 Jess Technically need art courses to to bolster that I think they would have been helpful. But um I've sort of avoided needing more education because I don't need more degrees I think 3 is enough. Yeah, right? they're like Pokemon got to find them. 14:02.48 archaeoteacup Right? Yeah, no, you don't want to you know, got to catch them all. Ah, what will be next. That's the question that I got to have you back on again, you know. 14:11.81 Jess Ah. 14:15.19 Jess And I already have 1 friend who has promised to shoot me in the head if I ever decide to do a ph d so it won't be a ph d but I could do a third masters. This could be it. 14:16.90 archaeoteacup To cook different directions. 14:34.40 archaeoteacup Um, what would you do out of curiosity if you would go to different direction. 14:34.11 Jess Um, oh um, I might do something with Korean history. That's another interest that I have is Korean history. Um and conserving Korean objects. 14:40.31 archaeoteacup Each Ah oh exciting. Okay, well, that's that's related though. So that's yeah that that's you know. 14:51.53 Jess So maybe doing something with that. Oh yeah, no, it's all it's all tangential. It's all you know. 14:59.57 archaeoteacup Yeah, and in terms of sort of the work that you do now. Um you you were working for a museum but you also do commission base work. Um as well. What are the kind of advantages and disadvantages of those 2 jobs. 15:15.28 Jess Um, so if one had a full time fixed position which I don't but if 1 did um, you get regular paychecks, you get well, especially in America you get ah health benefits um pay time off. Sick leave. You know all these like really nice luxuries. Um, because in America those are luxuries for sure. Um, but at the same time when I work contract jobs where I said how much I'm being paid I can make a lot more money and a lot less time. Um. 15:36.53 archaeoteacup Right. 15:45.74 archaeoteacup Cho. 15:50.60 Jess So I mean the goal for me I think is to sort of have both if I can we'll see we'll see how possible that is. But um, yeah, so it's all just sort of like balancing a regular paycheck versus a big paycheck sometimes. 15:56.30 archaeoteacup Ah, ah there. 16:08.54 archaeoteacup Ah, yeah, they're taking taking that risk which on that note are there any exciting projects coming up or anything planned for the future. 16:09.20 Jess If you. 16:15.72 Jess I mean being on your podcast is definitely the most exciting project I've been on projects I should say as I just saw that our first podcast together was released today. So I'm excited about that. Go listen to and my travel. 16:29.43 archaeoteacup Yes, that's true on the day of recording indeed. Yes, yes, indeed for those of you who are not aware I also co-host another ah podcast called am by trial which looks at the intersection between fantasy fiction and archeology and Jess was a guest this month 16:34.10 Jess Um. 16:45.85 archaeoteacup Talking about vampires. So if that's something that interests you please do go and listen to that. 16:51.23 Jess I Love the very like the varied ah topics that you get me on for vampires mummies I mean what's going to be next what supernatural creature shall we find next? ah. 16:53.19 archaeoteacup Right? Mummies vampires. 17:00.86 archaeoteacup Do a zombie or something does it dead the dead person you can talk about that. Ah, ah. 17:08.22 Jess Oh yeah, yeah, we could talk about Frankenstein. Maybe I don't know I don't know we'll find something I'm sure why oh would you consider working great. Um, but yeah it was you. 17:10.50 archaeoteacup Yeah, yeah, there you go there, you go Dorian Gray art conservation anyway. But anyway interesting projects coming up. Sorry. 17:23.14 Jess Ah, in terms of future projects. We had a mummy project fall through um so a few summers ago I worked on a mummy that is housed in Pennsylvania at a very small college called Westminster and. 17:26.42 archaeoteacup O. 17:37.48 archaeoteacup Um, doesn't. 17:38.60 Jess Um, it was very cool and so westminster college social media did post about it. So I'll try to send the link over to you Matilda so you can put it in the show notes. Um because it was very fun. The Mumm's name is Pes Ed and so I specifically worked on her coffin while my supervisor Mimi worked on the mummy and we had an intern Laura. 17:45.24 archaeoteacup Oh yes, yeah I'll put it in the show notes. 17:57.37 Jess And our egyptologist Jonathan um, so we we jokingly call ourselves the mummy dream team. Um, which is very fun and so we're we're always looking for new mummy jobs pummy opportunities but ah funding is particularly scarce. Ah, unsurprisingly so. 17:58.76 archaeoteacup Um, ah wow. 18:06.40 archaeoteacup Ah, ah. 18:15.36 archaeoteacup Right? Yeah, oh okay, hello. 18:17.15 Jess Keeping an eye out but that's that's the ultimate goal is to find more mummy projects to do. 18:24.49 archaeoteacup Excellent, Well hopefully you know people will be listening into this podcast and go oh lubbies. Yes I have I have loads of money and I want people to look at mummies so I will send her my fund right now. 18:32.75 Jess Yes, here have a pot of money. Yes, thank you? yes. 18:38.90 archaeoteacup exactly exactly perfect? perfect um well I think that that makes marks the end of our tea break. Ah hopefully. I'll I'll leave you to your quest for for funding for the mummy project. But thank you? So so much for joining me today just very much appreciate it and if anyone wants to find out more about Jesse's work or mummies or anything that we've spoken about today. 18:51.40 Jess Thank thank you! Thank you? Thank thanks for having me. 19:07.21 archaeoteacup Check out the show notes I'll try and put in as many links to things as possible on the podcast homepage I hope that you all enjoyed our journey today if you want to help support both this show and all of the other amazing series for example and my trial that formed the archeology podcast network you can become an apn member. You'll be helping us to create even more amazing content. You'll also just as an extra bonus have exclusive access to ad-free episodes and bonus content like our quarterly online seminars which look at different topics within archaeology. So for more information on that do check out the homep page at archaeologypodcastnetwork.com also if you would like to continue the conversation or ask any questions you can contact both me and all of the other hosts on the archeology podcast network through our Discord server again, all information is on the website bye for now see you next time. 19:53.30 Jess I.