00:00.00 archaeoteacup Okay, gets working good welcome back everyone I hope that your teacups are fuller and the biscuits jar is emptier and so Ronnie of course we did already introduce you in the first section we talked a little bit about your research, but maybe we can. Go into a bit more detail with that because it sounds really fascinating. So your current research as we mentioned looks at iron age textile finds specifically from salt mines. Um, so yeah, can you can you tell us more? Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:27.60 Ronja Yes I would love to tell you more about those right? Um, my my ph d um is now dealing with iron age text ties from the salt mine done back in Austria which is. Ah, south of Zeitzberg maybe some of you may may know this area because right next to the de back. There's also ah the salt mine hushtad which is very famous because hashdad is also the name of a iron h time period and because of the burials next to the salt mine. 00:58.43 archaeoteacup Oh how. 01:01.00 Ronja Just very famous and it was also um, published a few years ago by Karina Guma she was dealing with those textiles from from the salt mine and haat is a bit older because we have ah earliest textile from hatchard from the bronze age into the iron age. So this is ah. Ah, a very exceptional fine place and a few kilometers away. There's a salt mine du back which is a bit late so middle to late iron age and those excavations were still going on from the last twenty years 01:21.73 archaeoteacup Oh. 01:38.52 Ronja And those text cards were building up into boxes in the museum there and as we are not so many textile archologists in in the german-speaking countries suffer german Austria um, we had to wait for my master p this to be finished so I could. 01:41.93 archaeoteacup Yeah. 01:57.31 archaeoteacup Ah. 01:57.59 Ronja Right now with my ph d on those text tests and I'm really thrilled about this because those salt mine text tis they really give us a huge picture of text-type craft about dying and suing and. Ah, reusing and recycling textiles and everything that you can think of I can do with those textileles and and because we also have like Hatchet and turnback and some kind of a connection laying next to each other and also like maybe people left hatshatt and went to dunbeck. 02:19.42 archaeoteacup Amazing. 02:33.17 Ronja We also can see a difference in in fashion. Maybe about how they may change their dying techniques from had start to doingberg because they're just a few hundred years in between them and just have a really close look at iron age. Ah, text have productions where we usually just paint a really broad picture of just 1 big period. But there we can just separate them earlier in age and late iron age and then have a look at those great text tiles. So that's my task mostly. 03:01.73 archaeoteacup Ah. 03:09.32 Ronja You know, documenting all the textiles you know making nice pictures making microscopy of those finds finding out you know what are the patterns like what's the weave type like and what's the quality. You know the fineness of those textiles. 03:09.69 archaeoteacup Okay. 03:28.89 Ronja Um, so everything that's really just basic actually but really necessary to get a ah good overview about all all those textiles and of course the question behind this like we also have this small micro-region where people we have the settlement so where the people live. 03:34.32 archaeoteacup Ah. 03:48.20 Ronja Have the burial right next to it where the people are buried and we have the salt mime where the people worked all the time. So just just a really small area on top of a mountain where the people lived and we can also have a look at the textile tools. 03:48.69 archaeoteacup Um. 04:01.20 archaeoteacup Um. 04:05.78 Ronja Which we find there in the settlements and we can have also look at the text tis in the burials and maybe compare them with the text tides in the salt mine because the question in the salt Mine is always what were those text Tis used for um, but. 04:21.14 archaeoteacup So. 04:24.51 Ronja They are most of the time secondary used as some kind of wrecks or maybe some protection for the hands of the people working in the Salt Mines Just so I don't know wipes or something or if some some sleeve got ripped off during work and just trash and they. 04:28.30 archaeoteacup Are. 04:37.36 archaeoteacup Um. 04:43.10 Ronja You know forward in the corner and it was just you know trash. So we also have some difficulties to to see what was the actual use of the textile in the first place but you know that doesn't matter actually that much me as I just want to show all those. 04:44.49 archaeoteacup Ah. 04:58.73 archaeoteacup Um, ah. 05:00.86 Ronja Bright colors and all those patterns and all this you know all the information that we usually don't have um in a such closed environment. Yeah. 05:10.20 archaeoteacup Yeah, and is it are these um because I seen these are sort of woven ah textiles So are they made from Wool or linen or ah. 05:15.95 Ronja Um, you. 05:20.10 Ronja Right? So um, most of the text tis are made out of wool and we also see those in hash that but ah, the Durmba Textiles also have a ah quiet amount of linen text tides which is very unusual. 05:23.61 archaeoteacup Oh. 05:36.90 Ronja Um, because we thought lyndin was not so much used in the iron in age in Austria because we don't have them so much in hulshded. Um, but this of course is one one point over maybe a change. Um for those societies that they may have used. 05:44.90 archaeoteacup Um. 05:55.40 Ronja Linen but the question is they are living on top of a mountain so where does the linen come from. They were not able to cultivate it themselves. So of course the people living and working in the salt mine were very rich for the time because they um. 06:01.23 archaeoteacup Um. 06:14.16 Ronja They had the salt and they traded the salt for a lot of different things. So maybe also textile trade was part of the salt trade actually but this is also a point which we can most of the time no longer. Um, you know see because of. 06:23.45 archaeoteacup Hey. 06:34.70 Ronja Very few amounts of text Tis we have and if they get traded or not and what are the specialties of those traded text tis you know why? Why are text tides traded if they can you know make them themselves maybe but if they can't make them themselves like the linen text tis. Maybe they are imported from somewhere else. 06:43.20 archaeoteacup Are. Well Okay, so then I guess that gives that ideas as the communication with other societies or other communities and which still are very interesting. Yeah well interesting and have you found any needles. 06:53.47 Ronja He. 06:58.66 Ronja In it. Yeah exactly? Yeah ah not that I know of but I may have a look at the finds myself. 07:09.36 archaeoteacup Um, ah yeah. 07:14.11 Ronja Ah, but because also in the publications you know, not always ah text Ti ah people are having a look on those tools so they may get interpreted differently or maybe you know the pictures are misleading so I will definitely have a look at those finds in the museum by myself. Just. 07:23.33 archaeoteacup Um. 07:33.80 archaeoteacup Just in case just a. 07:33.56 Ronja Through through everything and and yeah because this happens but also with ah with textile and maybe when they are attached to metal objects. They are not seen as textile because it's just the metal object so reevaluating and you know have a look at everything is always yeah. 07:43.32 archaeoteacup Alright. 07:53.57 Ronja Very important. Ah yeah. 07:54.38 archaeoteacup I Definitely agree with that I That's basically all I did for my Ph D So yeah, and um, so as you mentioned you're doing your Ph D research you did your master's research on something similar on this topic as well or. 08:06.23 Ronja Right? Um I also did my masters on iron age textiles. But they were from Slovenia from hych that period graves I was examined 3 different sites. Those textiles were stored in Vienna in the national history of museum vienna because um. 08:09.83 archaeoteacup Okay. 08:24.12 Ronja These were um, finds from all the excavations from from the nineteenth century and those excavations were carried out. Maybe you know in a very different way. People would do them now. So there's literally no documentation at all. 08:28.84 archaeoteacup Um, oh Wow. Okay. 08:34.18 archaeoteacup Yes I can imagine Oh god. 08:42.58 Ronja Um, and those text tis were transferred from Slovenia to Austria because it was the austrian hungarian monarchy back then and so they were in Vienna and I worked there on those text Tis and also like you said now reevalu everything I see. 08:59.20 archaeoteacup Yes, ah. 09:00.65 Ronja Ever look at all the metal objects and yeah, find some really nice text Tis and um even if they are from very old excavations and even if they were restored in a not so nice way. Um I could I could learn so much from them and I could gain a lot of information and very. 09:12.83 archaeoteacup And. 09:20.62 Ronja Interesting insights. Also you know dealing with whole burial structures and everything if I if you would like I can tell you an example if we have some time left just um, for example and there's always I think I want to tell there was a burial mount. 09:28.22 archaeoteacup Um, yes, yes, yes, please do. 09:39.95 Ronja And in those burial months multiple persons were buried and it's quite common for those hashed period graves that for wealthier people. There was also a horse a horse buried next to them or on top of them or some something you know close to the buried person. 09:55.50 archaeoteacup So. 09:58.85 Ronja And I was having a very rich bow oil with a lot of textiles attached to metal objects and there were a few metal rings just some rings you know flying around in the grave and attached to those rings was some kind of a fur. 10:10.52 archaeoteacup So. 10:18.85 Ronja Um, um so I just not only look at Textiles but also other organic material. For example, fur or leather of course and we were examining the the fur and I said it looks quite like a horse fur. 10:27.71 archaeoteacup Um. 10:32.84 archaeoteacup So. 10:34.84 Ronja And I was looking through documentation and it said that half a meter above the human ah horse was also buried and but those rings were said to be found inside the human barrier. So we did some some more examinations and. 10:44.30 archaeoteacup Ah. 10:54.74 Ronja Of course the National History Museum Vienna has a lot of you know also recent zoological finds or zoological apartment. So I was I was digging in the yeah digging in the in the animal Hide department underneath. 11:00.71 archaeoteacup So nice referenced so you made some new friends. 11:13.65 Ronja And was searching okay Zebra Zebra giraffe giraffe all their horses. So um I was looking at the shavaski horse hide and and I was taking some samples from those horse hides from different parts of the horse from the head. 11:21.31 archaeoteacup Oh well. 11:30.58 Ronja From the back from the shoulders from the legs and stuff because ah even if it's from the same animal. Um, the hair structure might look different. Um, so we were examining them under the microscope Weton Electronic microscope for this. Um. 11:31.10 archaeoteacup Ah. 11:40.38 archaeoteacup Ah, okay, m. 11:49.69 Ronja And so we compared those with the with the archaological finds and interesting is that the the right ski. It's a very old old horse. Yeah right? So they're very cream color but but black hair and um. 12:02.22 archaeoteacup They're the ones with the really sticky up means right? Yeah yes, yeah yeah. 12:08.85 Ronja You know, yeah and like the the structure of the schwatsky horse hair from the head um correlated really well with the ah hair from the metal rings from from the find So what I was thinking about was those horses were also buried like. 12:21.12 archaeoteacup Hello. 12:28.41 Ronja Ah, fully dressed I would say so they had the harness and maybe the saddle and maybe some you know some other stuff. Yeah, yeah, so decorated because like the horse was like more accessory or some kind of statue you know statues. 12:36.39 archaeoteacup Ribbons in their hair or something. 12:41.76 archaeoteacup Yeah, no. 12:46.85 Ronja Um, symbol for this human? um and I thought those those could be really well part of the host harness which was actually attached to the horse. But those barrier mounts as you may also know they tend to collapse you know their cavities inside. 13:01.51 archaeoteacup Right? or. 13:04.59 Ronja And if the if the cavity was ah built out of wood. Maybe um, it will you know Rot and it will collapse and parts of the horse may fall into the grave of the human. Um, so this hint of finding horse here. 13:13.59 archaeoteacup Am her. 13:22.17 Ronja On the meta ring inside the human grave opens us a very plausible picture of how the barrier situation may have been. So yeah, that's so interesting. So that's from a littering with a bit of horse hair attached to it and I think that's that's. 13:34.42 archaeoteacup Um, yeah, just from a little ring. 13:41.53 Ronja So interesting and so good and because we don't have so so much documentation from from those excavations. It's really necessary to look at every small bit we can find yeah. 13:47.79 archaeoteacup Yeah. Yeah, yeah, and indeed shows the importance of looking not just at the kind of big important things but also looking at the the small things and looking at sort of reassessing what something could have been and yeah, definitely Approved. Um, and so yes, so as we mentioned you're now doing a Ph D now. 14:00.20 Ronja Yeah in. 14:11.43 archaeoteacup I was a bit unsure because I saw you mentioned the other day congratulations again that your funding has now come in so you're ah funded Ph D Now so were you before working unfunded or how did that work. 14:17.48 Ronja Yeah, ah. 14:23.61 Ronja Yeah I started my ph d in 2020 and we wanted to get funded actually quite fast. But as you all know in 2020 a pandemic may hit us. 14:28.20 archaeoteacup Come on. 14:35.90 archaeoteacup Something nothing happened. Yeah, ah. 14:42.69 Ronja And and so the the funding situation also for archaeologists changed rapidly and funding was not so easily you know? and yeah for us anymore. Um, and through the last three years 14:51.33 archaeoteacup Ah. 14:59.29 archaeoteacup Ah. 15:01.83 Ronja Um, I you know I worked and I just tried to live and survive um and you know find maybe some time next to it to prepare my ph d um, but you know my research it is necessary that I travel to Austria. 15:06.58 archaeoteacup Yeah. 15:19.70 archaeoteacup For her. 15:21.72 Ronja And have a look at the textiles by myself. So having the time and the money to travel to Austria back and forth back and forth was not something I could achieve with funding myself. So and for these kind of projects if you need to travel and if you're. 15:33.53 archaeoteacup Yeah. 15:40.30 Ronja Need to spend some time somewhere else. Funding is necessary. It's just the way it is um I have my my my my family here in Berlin I want to live here and you know I always come back. That's totally fine. But yeah I was. 15:45.83 archaeoteacup Now. 15:58.60 Ronja Starting to um I think last year I was starting to send out my what's called the applications. Yeah I was sending out the applications to a bunch of yeah you know funders and then. 16:07.70 archaeoteacup The application. So yeah. 16:16.35 archaeoteacup And. 16:18.40 Ronja I hope for the best and of course icon g is not that ah common so you have a small amount of possibilities and in Germany it's the way so I had like 8 or 9 applications. Um, and 1 16:26.50 archaeoteacup Yeah, um. 16:36.80 archaeoteacup You That's all you need? yeah. 16:37.23 Ronja Came back positive. Oh that's all you need, but it's the thrill and it's it's the roll call of emotions and it's of course it always is the question can I achieve my Ph D if I'm not funded and the answer was always no and if I didn't get. 16:53.90 archaeoteacup Okay. 16:57.40 Ronja Ah, funding. This would have been the end to it. Yeah, so you can see on on This is such a close call. Actually yeah thank you, Thank you I Really thankful so well. 16:57.79 archaeoteacup Yeah, yeah, yeah, Okay, well congratulations again then I mean that's fantastic. Yeah, no because. It's one of those things I always get questions about you know how? how is the Ph D process go and how do you apply for things and so I I try to show different variations. But so I know that some people are able to do. 17:15.75 Ronja Is. 17:25.21 archaeoteacup Ah, research without the funding but like you say if you have to travel a lot I can imagine it's it's different. 17:30.40 Ronja It's also difficult and in the european countries right? because like in Germany if you're a ph d student at a university you know you're not automatically part of the of the staff you don't get a job there. You know they're very limited job offers. 17:43.26 archaeoteacup I Okay um, um. 17:46.53 Ronja And a lot of ph d students. So this is this is not something you get just to be a p student student but I also thought about going to Estonia again because I was working in Sonia um, quite a long time and saw the situation there is quite different if you're a ph d student you get ah just a. Regular amount of ah you know money monthly and then you can maybe get some funding next to it. So um, you are not just depending on funding like in Germany actually in. 18:08.40 archaeoteacup Um, who left. Yeah, okay because indeed in the Netherlands. It's the same generally of course with my contract. It was different but generally if you managed to get a ph d position at a University which has something associated with it then you're treated as an employee kind of thing. So. It's part of a as part of it but then also people have. 18:33.45 Ronja In. 18:38.29 archaeoteacup External funding agencies. But then I know a lot of people who have also just got the Ph D position but then they're almost like a guest researcher if that makes sense so then and then yeah they don't have funding unfortunately. But anyway I thought it was just interesting to show the I always try to to show the variation that different jobs can take in archaeology and. 18:43.72 Ronja And. 18:53.28 Ronja So yeah. 18:55.94 archaeoteacup How it works. So ah yeah I think your your past where you've got has definitely been a lot of work. It sounds like but hopefully it pays off and so part of that work was working at an open air museum. You mentioned before so sort of living history. Um, and all that kind of thing. So what were you am I right in thinking you were quite. 19:00.36 Ronja Yes, I hope so too. Yeah. 19:08.86 Ronja M. 19:16.50 archaeoteacup Managerial like you did something quite an intense job there. No yeah. 19:19.38 Ronja Yeah, well well yes I I work or like we have a ah a museum village here in Berlin it's called dupep so open air museum dupe. 19:30.49 archaeoteacup Ahead. 19:34.23 Ronja Um, which is a recreated medieval village and south and part of Berlin and as ah, part of our city history and heritage and stuff so this is actually quite nice. Um, also to to visit the village and we. 19:42.62 archaeoteacup No. 19:51.40 Ronja We exist for quite a long time. So the museum was funded in one seventy five and it was first only in association and all the people working there were doing the work for free. Just ah, you know as their hobby and want to show ah the burden people. 20:04.24 archaeoteacup Oh well? um. 20:10.64 Ronja What their history was like so um, in the past few years. The situation changed a bit we we are now attached to the stat museums or the City Museum of Berlin and they manage all the all the public outreach and you know all the. 20:20.65 archaeoteacup Okay. 20:27.75 archaeoteacup Ah. 20:28.78 Ronja Guides who are having to or through the museum and stuff and the association is still existing and is mostly doing living history on the weekends to show people what it is like to. Work and live in the middle ages because we have some houses and we have gardens and we have fields and we can show the visitors What what Medieval life would have looked like um so I started there also in 2020. 20:52.82 archaeoteacup Oh. 21:01.69 Ronja And I am now the chair chairwoman of of this association association. Um, also for the next two years so I also just volunteer um in this museum and yeah. 21:14.16 archaeoteacup Right. 21:20.75 Ronja Try to live my craft and do all the living history stuff I want to do but also you know manage to give some scientific input and to also work to be better and. 21:22.11 archaeoteacup Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 21:38.12 Ronja Have some more historical accuracy when dealing with living history and stuff because of if you're just doing it. You know, just for fun outside of a museum you may have your own standards. But I think if you're doing this in a museum and people are paying for it. 21:41.25 archaeoteacup Ah. 21:55.90 Ronja Um, your historical accuracy should be quite the high standard. So I'm I'm working to achieve this over the time. Yeah. 22:03.10 archaeoteacup Now Hopefully well I mean it makes it more fun as well. Right? because you can really talk about the history of it and the archaeology of it and and it makes it a bit more I mean maybe I'm biased. 22:12.85 Ronja Yeah, you know and the and the middle ages are ah quite effective if you want to research them. So if I'm coming back from my iron edge text Tis and say oh no I have no source I go into the medieval times and it. So. 22:21.36 archaeoteacup Um, yeah. 22:26.10 archaeoteacup Um, yeah I have no idea. Ah um, yeah I can imagine. 22:30.36 Ronja Easy. You know I just have to look at some pictures and everything's there. So it's so motivating. 22:39.52 archaeoteacup No, but it sounds sounds like good fun sounds like you have a lot of different cool projects going on. Um, and so my final question was um, for anyone who's listening in who might be thinking oh textile archeology that sounds you know, kind of fun kind of cool Would you have any advice or suggestions for people who might be interested in. 22:57.48 Ronja Oh yes, we need textile archeologists. They are very needed because I said earlier we just a few people in Germany and just a few people all of Europe and I think what I love about this. 22:57.73 archaeoteacup Going down that path. 23:14.11 Ronja The specialty is that we are all so connected to each other we and all know each other so we see us at conferences and you know workshops and we are all connected through different small projects but this is also very needed because text archeology. Quite the new specialty. We need to do some basic Research. We have to figure out what methods are working and which are not so we are not just like just basic methods I Can you know put on those text ties. No, it's always something New. You have always new work to do. 23:34.11 archaeoteacup Um. 23:50.87 Ronja And to connect and to talk to each other and to evaluate if this is all working out is very very important. So if you're into textile Archology don't hide please come out I think get in touch with any of those people. Um. 23:56.18 archaeoteacup Nice. 24:03.48 archaeoteacup Come into the light. 24:10.75 Ronja This is ah there are small hierokies. You know I love that we are so a lot of women so you have to tell it like it is ah and it's a very nice working atmosphere if we're meeting each other and it's It's a great topic. We all have a lot of. 24:15.89 archaeoteacup Ah, ah, no. 24:27.96 Ronja Passion for what we do and we all know it's very hard to work on text archaeology because it is not seen at the moment in the different yeah parts of archaeology if we want to work somewhere they say text archeology. Well. 24:45.36 archaeoteacup Oh. 24:46.11 Ronja We don't need that and I always say well we we actually need that because text tis come up every week um and the colleagues don't know what to do with them. That's that's totally fine because you know they have other specialties. Yeah, but we need to work. Yeah. 24:53.22 archaeoteacup Um, yeah, um. 24:59.62 archaeoteacup But then bring a specialist. Yeah yeah, yeah. 25:04.26 Ronja To be seen actually to be heard so um, yeah, if you want to learntextilearchology please do it the universities ah do most of the time do not teach textile archology. So my way was also to to find a text psychologist which was Karida Curva 25:20.25 archaeoteacup And. 25:23.13 Ronja And to to learn everything from her. Um, yeah, so this is most of the time the way to go until we infitrate. Thank you to to de set by love. Yeah, that's the goal you know, but. 25:26.97 archaeoteacup Ah, now good. 25:34.98 archaeoteacup Um, working from below. 25:39.90 archaeoteacup Ah, well it sounds like you've got a lot to get going on with then I fear you know, starting a rebellion. So I think that marks the end of our Tbreak probably time to go back to work. Thank you? So so so much for joining me today roia. It was really interesting to speak to you and to learn learn all about your research. 25:47.50 Ronja Um. 25:54.87 Ronja Um, thank you too. 25:58.71 archaeoteacup And yeah, if anyone wants to find out more about roia's work or about needles prehistoric clothing other clothing do check the show notes on the podcast homepage I will put all of her information on there I hope that you enjoyed our journey today. 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