00:00.00 archaeoteacup Just checking is's picking up. Yeah, good hello and welcome to episode 16 of t break time travel I am your host Matilda Zep right and today I'm savoring a penna calardity I thought well you know if the weather's going to be acting as if I'm in the tropics then I may as well drink. Ah, cocktail tea to celebrate and joining me on my t break today is Ronda Lau an archaeologist who specializes in ancient textiles are you also on tea today or what are you drinking? classic fair enough. 00:29.43 Ronja I'm actually not a tea drinker I'm mostly drinkking water all the time. So I have a glass of water next to me. 00:36.56 archaeoteacup That's typical I don't know if you've listened to previous episodes. But the first the very first episode I recorded was with Ashley the candles episode and she said I don't drink hot beverages and going now. But you're similar also no coffee, no hot chocolate. 00:41.50 Ronja Oh yeah. 00:47.57 Ronja No I'm not actually an I'm just a water drink and it's quite warm in Germany at the moment so water is when you're refreshing now. 00:54.12 archaeoteacup Um, yes, fair enough. Yeah, fair enough and out of curiosity seeing as you're German I imagine water has to be with bubbles then. 01:03.30 Ronja Um, yeah, we have ah we have like this ah self-made bubble machine I don't know so we are always prepared. Yeah. 01:07.66 archaeoteacup um um I remember being really confused. The first time I went to Germany and I just asked for you know a like a normal water and they came and it had bubbles in. Let's get what and that's that yeah yeah. 01:20.43 Ronja Um, like we laugh at he is Regan. But. 01:23.54 archaeoteacup Ah, ah, it's It's even if you go into the shops and you look at the water bottles classic water like classic shows busa is with bubbles like it's like no no classic water is this flat anyway. Um one of those one of those standard things. 01:28.14 Ronja Even in. Yeah. 01:40.68 archaeoteacup Um, and so yes as I mentioned um, you are an archaeologist what first ah tempted you should we say to get into archeology. How did you start on this path. 01:50.90 Ronja Oh yeah, that's that's a great story actually well me personally um I didn't know what to do after school so I was just really thinking about working first and I started actually with a living history first. So most archaeologists also. 01:52.97 archaeoteacup Excellent. 02:07.50 archaeoteacup This is. 02:08.47 Ronja Living history and I thought well this is such a nice topic I want to learn more about it I want to you know, dive deep and yeah, and then I started to look out for I don't know for some? um. Job and I started working in ah archaeology first before I started studying it. Um, yeah and I was looking in. ah ah um I was digging um with some ah some you know, just small excavations in in Berlin and I thought well this is. 02:29.57 archaeoteacup Freely like what. Oh. 02:40.20 archaeoteacup Here. 02:43.40 Ronja Also really nice I like also the practical part and the theoretical part about it. So maybe I was just start studying archcology and so I found prehistoric archeology in Berlin and I thought this is really great I want to do that and then of course you need to specialize ah into something. And then I thought well I am really good at textiles and suing and crafting things so this will be my topic. Yes I'm a ph d student at the moment. 03:09.86 archaeoteacup Yeah, no fair enough and at the moment you are doing your ah Ph D correct. 03:18.60 Ronja Am I am at the WUniversity in borhom actually so perhaps still living in Berlin and I'm also doing my ph DT this about um text Tis iron age text ties in Austria. Yeah, but. 03:24.92 archaeoteacup Um. 03:29.76 archaeoteacup Okay, Wow. So yeah, it really did grip you if you've managed to go all the way through to to Ph D level. Um to do it and I'm curious though because so you said that you worked in archeology like as a excavator but you were able to work even Without. An Archeology Did you have to do a particular training or I'm I'm just curious. Personally how that how that works. 03:47.69 Ronja Yeah I mean I was a bit you know just going straightforward to to ask them yo yo hey can I do like an internship you know, just wanted to have a look at it and I said yeah I mean you can have an internship for two weeks I mean we don't pay you anything but you can. 04:00.80 archaeoteacup Ah. 04:04.10 archaeoteacup Death. 04:06.37 Ronja Can see how it goes for you. We teach you some stuff and that work pretty well like so I was just asking. Yeah, can you take me in this I guess. 04:12.66 archaeoteacup Look there. Ah oh nice. That's funny actually my first ever. Excavation job was pretty similar that I basically just I did I had done my undergrad degree but I basically I had emailed so many people also in Germany funnily enough and. 04:26.45 Ronja Yes. 04:29.89 archaeoteacup Everyone was going on. No sorry no, we don't have work. No no, no and then but luckily at some point someone would be like oh no, we don't have work but try this person they might have work so then in the next email I'd be able to be like so and so recommended I contact you being like you know pretending that we were best buddies. Um and eventually. 04:40.26 Ronja Ah. 04:49.18 archaeoteacup I Sort of got through to someone who said, oh no, we don't have any work but we do um we have a tour of our like excavation this weekend do come along and have a look you know might be interesting to you so I went along and basically indeed cornered them and said please give me a job and I think just having me physically there in front of them. They they couldn't say no. So. 05:00.82 Ronja So. 05:07.39 Ronja Um. 05:07.44 archaeoteacup It's so not that we are recommending to any of our listeners that this is the way you should get an archeology job. You should be you know, respectful. And yeah, but ah, excellent and if you could travel back in time after all this is tea break time travel. Where would you go and why. 05:12.66 Ronja Ah, so. 05:23.94 Ronja Um, yeah I thought about this question earlier and I must say all the ah all the you know times I want to have a look at a stone age the Bronze age. Yeah age the middle ages So I have a small glimpse in. 05:35.91 archaeoteacup Um. 05:41.10 Ronja You know into everything because I'm so curious. You know as Prehistoric ecologist the more we go back in time the less we know about societies and people and stuff because you know the fines are getting ah more sparse and everything. So of course going back in time very far. 05:57.20 archaeoteacup Um. 06:00.98 Ronja It's probably the most interesting thing about it. Yeah, so stolen the H and Bronze age would be like I think the best. Yeah yeah. 06:09.27 archaeoteacup Fair so like a a tour like 1 of these you know bus tours where you get often checkie to things. Yeah, exactly yeah I mean let's face it if they ever did invent time travel. That's probably there was there's bound to be some business that. 06:18.66 Ronja It's on a pup crawl but a time crawl I don't know. 06:26.15 Ronja Sure yeah. 06:29.22 archaeoteacup That starts doing that. So okay, well hopefully fingers crossed. Although of course they probably haven't invented time travel because I feel like we'd know about it by now unfortunately but's ah okay, okay, so so stone age Bronze age fair enough which is funny because you're doing I think iron age. 06:35.70 Ronja And. 06:44.44 Ronja Yes, I'm doing iron h at the moment but of course as a tech archologist. You just get everything that is here so I'm not I'm not really specialized into into 1 time but of course as my ph d is dealing with Iron H Text Tas and also my master the this. Um. 06:50.37 archaeoteacup Yeah. 07:01.26 Ronja I'm quite into this time period yeah. 07:05.80 archaeoteacup Okay, well I think we'll we'll come back to that. Um in and later in the podcast I think because otherwise we'll spend far too much time fan girling about ancient textiles. So thank you very much for joining my Tbreak today and of course before we look at today's object we first 07:11.72 Ronja Um, yeah. 07:20.46 archaeoteacup Indeed have to journey back in time this time we're going back to around 5000 bc so kind of halfway on the on the tour bus I guess um, and unfortunately our navigation software's a bit broken so we're not really sure where we are geographically but it doesn't really matter actually for this episode we do however find ourselves in the middle of a small but very busy settlement There's a huge long house a figure skinning a deer using a flint blade to slice the hideaway from the gleaming muscle beneath nearby. There's another figure stoking the fire in a wide hearth next to them yet another figure crouches next to a large rock bent over their task in quiet concentration. We edge our way further forward and see that they're cutting grooves into small sections of what looks like a dear leg bone using a flint blade once the groove is halfway through the material. The bone is flipped and a mirror in groove is carved into the other side when it's almost deep enough that you can see some light from the fire shining through. The figure uses a wedge to split the bone apart into tiny slivers which are then pierced at one end before being scraped with a fresh tool to create a tiny sharp point. So today we are looking at sewing needles not necessarily bone needles specifically. But. Of course that is what we see through the majority of the archeological time period I can imagine so we'll get into the details soon. But first of course we have to look at the most asked questions on the internet and there weren't actually that many because yeah and I had to use bone needle for this because if you just use needle then all kinds of things come up about. 08:47.54 archaeoteacup Modern sewing techniques and everything so and even then there weren't actually that many and they all basically asked the same 2 questions which were and first of all, what were bone needles used for I don't know if you can elaborate on this wrong? Yeah yes. 09:02.71 Ronja Well, that's a broad question. Absolutely and I mean I am into this topic of textile production and stuff So this this question is like the I mean what a bone needles for of course mostly suing something? Um, but of course like. 09:11.18 archaeoteacup Um, yeah. 09:20.43 Ronja You set it in your in your nice surrounding. Um, ah first part like there is a needle which has a hole at the end so because of course we have other needle types too which don't have holes at the end so you have to put a thread to it. So um. 09:22.51 archaeoteacup She. 09:33.72 archaeoteacup And. 09:40.35 Ronja Like needles with a hole attached with thread. They are mostly for suing attaching something a fabric or something B something else to another. They can used for embroidery and netting and. Stitching and something else. So um, everything that is somehow related with threat and combining something with each other so that's the I think that's the very plain answer to what we're bone needles for yeah. 10:12.30 archaeoteacup Yeah, that's a pretty simple answer. Yeah no, that's ah, that's nice. We like simple answers next one slightly more I I liked the wording of this one as well. It was always when was the bow Needle invented which. 10:18.72 Ronja So. 10:27.10 Ronja If oh yeah. 10:29.31 archaeoteacup Ah, like the use of the word invented not sure you can provide an answer for this one. 10:32.36 Ronja Well I mean yes if if something gets invented so we have to think about a time period where a needle was not used and then at a certain point it eventually was to suddenly it Boom There was a needle We don't know where it comes from Boom marries it and I mean. 10:44.90 archaeoteacup Suddenlyt Ha Yeah yeah, so. 10:52.23 Ronja Needles are one of the old tools. We know of mankind so I have looked it up actually and have had a look at what were the earliest evidence of needles we have so there is this um needle from the siburu cave it's in in Africa. And it's also named as the earliest sewing needle and also made out of bone and was stated fifty Nine Thousand Bce so of course Africa holds ah, of course a lot of very old tools. Um. 11:27.77 Ronja Dated very long ago and so this is not an but an unusual find actually so okay, yeah, some some bone needles in Africa sounds very probable but then we also have some some needles from the Deni Sovak cave and it's and Russia and it's 50000 years old um, so there are also very old needles. We can find here so where mankind is I think there are also needles we can also think about I think there's also a question later. 11:50.20 archaeoteacup Um. 12:00.73 Ronja Um, with the needles and the sewing and the clothing connected to each other so when was the first clothing invented and I think the the question when was the first bone needle invented goes really well together. So yeah. 12:08.15 archaeoteacup Um, fair. 12:11.77 archaeoteacup And because indeed you always have this image like the cartoons and everything of you know, Cave men Prehistoric man just with skins draped over them kind of like a half a lion just draped over of them sides. But. 12:24.54 Ronja Um, and yeah, but. 12:29.34 archaeoteacup Do you and and and again we're probably going to go into this in a bit more detail afterwards but we have a bit of time now. Um, do you think that that would have been the first kind of clothing that it would have just been draped over or could do you think indeed it was always sown from the beginning. 12:32.43 Ronja Um, you. 12:44.70 Ronja And it it's not always necessary to su clothing. So we also have like later. Ah, for example from the iron age later evidence that there are also clothes which are just draped around the body and are fastened with you know. 12:58.43 archaeoteacup Her. 12:58.68 Ronja Maybe a belt or with some feebuline stuff so you don't need to sue clothing but we have some ah if we think about like leather clothing or clothing made out of some other fibers plant fibers and stuff which are not really spun but maybe also like um. You know, braided and stuff and leather soon to each other um is probably um, yeah, plausible for also of stone age people. Um, and this gives us a very big you know, insight about technology and ah. And dressing themselves having an idea about how I want to look how I want to cover myself. What are the reasons. Ah for covering ourselves you know because um I think there was a well study which sort of people can. Survive naked like around twenty one degree temperature outside. So if stone edge people lived in ah of course in colder climate. They need to cover themselves just to protect themselves from the environment but also clothing is just not a protection but also. Ah shows our social status where we belong to which is our ethnicity maybe where we you know where we are in our yeah family and surrounding so just clothing and producing. It has always some kind of a meaning behind it. 14:32.15 Ronja Just a practical reason. Um, and so I also think people may may be very conscious about how they create their clothing and spend also time on it because the week takes time most of it and but they're willing to do it. 14:45.53 archaeoteacup Yeah, yeah. 14:51.17 Ronja And to make also really nice clothing and decorating it embroidering it suing some decoration on its shelves and muscles and you know just making nice clothing even if they are just for protecting against the environment. We have some evidence from graves from the stone age where we. Ah, have a body laying there but no clothing because you know it's organic, material. Um, it's not surviving that far that long but we have some some evidence of embroidered shelves on on the body and you know they had to be attached onto something. So um, this was probably part of the clothing. And this also um must have been soon onto onto the clothing. Yeah, so. 15:30.96 archaeoteacup Um. 15:37.31 archaeoteacup Which that reminds me a bit of um I remember meeting ah ter today'sza camper. Um, who is um I met her through Exxar she does a lot of leather working. Um and she does a lot of rep like ah replication of prehistoric leather clothes. 15:44.99 Ronja And. 15:52.26 Ronja Prior And yeah. 15:54.52 archaeoteacup Um, so sort of early like mesolithic and early neolithic and indeed she says a similar thing to what you were just saying that clothing would not have just been Functional. It would have also been beautiful and so she makes these really gorgeous um pieces of clothing and I think that that's a really interesting idea because so many times if people even. Replicates you know clothing from the past like if they're doing living history. It is very simple when it's very crude and it's you know which it wouldn't necessarily have been like that I guess. 16:20.60 Ronja Um, ah no, no yeah, that's that's very common Miscochette conception about like prehistoric people in general they need to be yeah dressed Really you know E except crude and. 16:30.89 archaeoteacup Who. 16:35.94 Ronja Ah, simple and not well done just you know, but but that's not the case and I'm really into telling people. We love beautiful stuff. You know I'm also I'm you know I dress nicely if I want That's just you know that's fine and people did that. Also. 16:38.29 archaeoteacup And now. 16:47.85 archaeoteacup Yeah. 16:54.89 Ronja Ah, couple of thousand years ago. 16:56.56 archaeoteacup Yeah, and and your when you do your reenactment Um, just going briefly back to this which sort of time periods. Do you generally focus on. Do you also make your own clothing for that. Do you also have to think of these things when you're making it. 17:01.48 Ronja Oop is it. 17:11.24 Ronja Yes, so um I'm I'm doing living history. Ah, for now 16 years so I have quite a long time. You know going through all the time periods. Um I have like recreated ah clothing. 17:20.71 archaeoteacup Um, Wow yeah. 17:27.58 Ronja From of course the ironn age um from Slovenia from Austria from the ah r age and Estonia from um, starting now bronze age also from Northern Germany now I have a lot of medieval stuff because we also have. Some medieval groups here and I also work in a museum village. So medieval stuff is necessary but differences from the eleventh century the Twelfth the thirteenth and the fourteenth century I also make aware of like most of the middle age of but. 17:48.82 archaeoteacup And. 17:59.24 archaeoteacup Ah, okay, wow Yeah, you'll be all set for your time travel trip, you'll have everything. 18:03.12 Ronja I get Um, yeah so I hope I don't point up the times of like she's from the future. Ah. 18:15.96 Ronja Right? And you always have to ask yourself like what is my intention. Do I want to hands to everything by myself. Do I want to plant by everything by myself. Do I want to hand weave everything by myself so you have to make some some cuts of course and you know don't spend so much money and time on it. But of course this is. 18:24.80 archaeoteacup Are. 18:35.53 Ronja What my my hobby is what I love to do at the weekends and what my where I put all my passion into it So and I mostly do all of the stuff myself and if I can't do it because I'm I didn't learn it I Let people do it. Um, who can help me with ah with that for example, like dying things and stuff. Um. 18:55.40 archaeoteacup Ah. 18:55.33 Ronja Yeah, so I Hope my quality is always pretty high and but I'm also just learning learning by doing all the time because um, for example for the middle ages you you see other depictions of people and say oh I haven't seen this one. Maybe I have to add this. That or have to cancer this because we don't have so much evidence and you know it's always work in progress in it living history is never finished. So yeah, that's totally fine. Yeah. 19:23.31 archaeoteacup Um, well, which is great. You have a hobby for life. Okay, well, we've gone slightly off ah off topic. But as you said clothing and needles are pretty much kind of. 19:31.20 Ronja Yes. In it. 19:34.91 archaeoteacup Hand in hand so to speak so it is important to talk about both? um and we'll talk about them again in a moment. But for now we will have a very quick break and we will be back soon.