00:00.00 archpodnet Welcome back to the final segment of episode None of the archeology show and I'm wondering what? Well let's let's step back a second his childhood. You know you you mentioned. Bringing all this stuff in about his childhood and how that kind of shaped him and his thinking and and the people it influenced around Him. Can you think of any I guess direct influences on it because maybe he wrote about this later in life or something like that but any direct influences or anything that his childhood in slavery actually. Helped shape his career as an archaeologist I don't know I feel like that would give you a particular point of view or understanding. 00:38.61 John W_I_ Lee Um, it would um but you know it's important if you think chronologically that Gilbert Gilbert was born in 63 so the civil war was still going but the slavery system was collapsing when he was a very child the system was gone so he did not have I think any personal memory. 01:36.12 archpodnet Sure. 01:13.47 John W_I_ Lee Of the system what he did have was a very vivid childhood memory called a knowledge of the post-civil war post-civil war period and that's both good and bad. So um, Augusta Georgia is an interesting place because it had an educated black population before the civil war. 01:55.84 archpodnet M. 01:52.45 John W_I_ Lee And after the civil war. All those schools were segregated. It had a ah board of education that provided funding for for black schools and that brought in black teachers. Ah for the for the for the for those schools. Um, so Gilbert was able to get an education in. 02:46.92 archpodnet Ah. 02:26.59 John W_I_ Lee In Augusta Georgia with some of you could say the very best young minds that were that were coming out of schools in Atlanta young African-american College graduates men and women. So you know he he was really able to benefit from that and. You know if you say how is that related to the legacy of slavery I mean these are people who some of the older teachers had grown up in slavery and they were determined to make the best of their lives and to make the people they were teaching as you know as to to do as much as they could possibly do. 04:07.76 archpodnet Sure. 03:34.77 John W_I_ Lee And into the 1880 s ninety s african americans would say about Augusta that it was a special place. Ah, ah, ah, there was a student of Gilbert's named Channing Tobias who later was a leader in the and nwacp and and Tobias used to talk with John Hope who was another student of Gilbert's and John Hope was the the none black president of Morehouse College in Atlanta University and they would talk about how Augusta was a special place because a black person could reach for the heights and receive encouragement from from white people in doing that and so that's the you know that's the environment that that Gilbert. 05:16.90 archpodnet Um, wow. 04:49.61 John W_I_ Lee Grew up in which which was unusual and that's you know in the post-civil war era but on the other hand Augusta is also the place that has you know some of the None confederate monuments in the country. Oh it's you know like it's it's ah it's a's a like there's a complex legacy back that goes back and forth. 02:53.63 Rachel Easy. 05:27.57 John W_I_ Lee And then as you look into you know the 1890 s and the nineteen hundreds augusta does not escape the rise of Jim Crow and that's something that you know Gilbert lives through lives through as as well and and that really marks that you know his later years. He. 1 I'll give you None terrible story is he he told um, an interviewer that he would never ride after about none. He never rode on a streetcar with his wife because he felt that somebody might insult his wife or say something and he would try to defend his wife and then he would be he would be lynched. Um. 07:09.24 archpodnet M. 06:39.13 John W_I_ Lee And that is you know we're talking about America's you know, like 1 of the None american archaeologists a distinguished man a educated person doesn't matter if you were educated or not but that was what he you know he told he told one in those days and so that the environment had also changed from the Augusta of the 1880 s that Channing Tobias and John hope. 07:31.78 archpodnet Wow. 07:17.51 John W_I_ Lee Um, talked about so it's not slavery that you know that's it's the it's the the change from actually things in his in his world were were more welcoming earlier than they became later in his life. 08:16.12 archpodnet Well, it's terrible. He had to think that way as far as streetcars and his wife goes. But I guess admirable in the fact that he recognized his own limitations and he's like listen if we're just not going to do it because if something happens I'm going off. 08:06.61 John W_I_ Lee Um, you um, it's a terrible thing to have to am imagine them. Um, you know I it's It's really is to well I mean whether or not he was an educated person whether or not he was famous. It's a terrible thing to have to imagine that you can't you know? Yeah, um. 08:49.16 archpodnet I know a lot of people today that don't think that way. Ah. 05:55.55 Rachel He. 08:56.84 archpodnet Yeah, for sure. 09:11.64 archpodnet Oh yeah, for anyone? Yeah, um, well so speaking of education and famous. What are maybe not I don't know what are some of his biggest archeological accomplishments and when I think about that I'm wondering what do we What do we know today that we can accredit John Wesley Gilber to 09:11.89 John W_I_ Lee Absolutely so um, they went to errerea I mentioned um and Gilbert and his colleague John Picard who later became a famous archaeologist in Missouri. 09:58.16 archpodnet Yeah. 09:39.85 John W_I_ Lee Um, together they did ah a topographic topographical survey of the ancient remains on the surface they mapped all the walls the towers the the visible surface remains and they tried to to put together a chronology of when the walls had been. Had been built and this was really um, the most advanced survey that any american team had done since the founding of the american school it really set the standard I think for for what came afterward and if you talk to the Greek and swiss archaeologists who work at errea today. 11:07.72 archpodnet Wow. 10:51.75 John W_I_ Lee And they've been digging there since the 1960 s the um, the swiss school along with the Greek ah Greek archeologists. Um, they will tell you that that Gilbert and Picard's survey is invaluable because it records remains that were destroyed after Eight ninety one and so they they had extremely careful measuring. They had careful recording. 09:00.33 Rachel E. 11:54.60 archpodnet Um. 11:31.47 John W_I_ Lee They walked around all around um and so that remains None I think it's ah it's an important scientific achievement and it's a milestone in american archaeology I think you you could you could justifiably say that it was. 12:43.32 archpodnet Yeah, go ahead. Rachel. 12:03.53 John W_I_ Lee It was an important step in American archeology. 09:54.49 Rachel That is so cool to hear about because I think that one of the problems with past archeologists and archeology is that they didn't necessarily take the time to document before they just went digging in trying to find the treasures right? So to know that he's one of the first that. 12:38.39 John W_I_ Lee Um, with her. 10:32.75 Rachel Sort of pioneered the whole mapping everything and really carefully measuring and doing all that I mean I can just imagine them out there just like taking these painstaking measurements all day long. That's that's really cool. So that's really neat to hear I Love that little bit of information. 13:07.15 John W_I_ Lee Um, of the week. 13:19.25 John W_I_ Lee Yes, and and John so John Picard would publish this final report on their survey and in in the very None footnote he actually credits he says. Mr. John W Gilbert is responsible for all the met all the measurements so he very explicitly gave Gilbert credit for that and you know he. 11:17.29 Rachel Oo. 11:30.29 Rachel Um. 13:55.61 John W_I_ Lee Ah, you know Picard as was white as were all the other people Picard could have just written Gilbert out of the story because by the time Picard did the the publication you know Gilbert was gone from Greece but he he made very sure that people knew who it was who had been who had done the measuring in that project. 15:02.80 archpodnet Um, nice, nice all right? Well that just leads us on and you already mentioned a few of his students as well. But what's his academic legacy. What are you know? what? what are some of the things that we're still. 12:12.71 Rachel Very cool. 15:34.70 archpodnet Benefiting from but from having having him in Academia and as an archeologist. Um. 14:57.51 John W_I_ Lee Absolutely so I mentioned Channing Tobias later leader of the lacp. Ah John hope later a major educational figure in Atlanta one of his other students was a man named Randall Albert Carter who was a bishop. In the in the Cme Church and and and as a bishop Carter I think founded about None churches during the period of the migration. So very very important figure for this the spread of the church into the into the north and I could go on and mention other individuals. But I think. 16:25.60 archpodnet Ah. 16:14.11 John W_I_ Lee You know in a generation at at at Payne College Gilbert taught both men and women because it was a coed school from the south from the start and that was not true with with the number of other schools whether they're black or white at the time. Um, he taught ah a. People who went on to be teachers and and ministers and lawyers and doctors all around the all around the south and all the way into the north so he kind of helped to educate ah a generation of people. 17:49.42 archpodnet That's awesome. That's really cool. It's nice to see that kind of pedigree. You know going back to somebody you know to see a start of that and going back to somebody who kind of founded I guess so to speak ah a legacy like that. That's really awesome. 17:33.90 John W_I_ Lee Actually may I follow up on that. So I mentioned that earlier Dr Millender so um ah Mallory Milllander grew up in New York City and he attended a cme church there and among the people at the church was an associate pastor was chantning to bias so in other words, that's just a 2 step. 18:18.80 archpodnet Yeah. 18:12.19 John W_I_ Lee Jump from Dr Millinger who I know through Tobias to Gilbert I mean yeah, that kind of the genealogy of knowledge and inspiration I think is is is there? yeah. 18:55.48 archpodnet Wow. Ah. 19:09.10 archpodnet Yeah I mean speaking of genealogy you mentioned that he had a daughter. Ah well real quick Rachel your hand is up I'm going to go in another direction. Do you have a follow up to that. Okay, yeah. 16:32.55 Rachel Um, yeah, just let me let me stay on the that really quick for None more second so you say he was a teacher and he taught all these really great people just curious. Um, what what subjects was he teaching was it archeology or is it more the linguistic stuff or what direction did he go with his actual teaching. 19:23.67 John W_I_ Lee Rachel that's a great question so he did not teach any standalone archeology classes but most likely he incorporated the archeology into his greek classes later teach world a world history and his europe class so he must have had some archeological. 17:26.79 Rachel Um e. 19:58.75 John W_I_ Lee Material in there but much of the teaching was languages so Greek german I mentioned is german teaching latin and english literature he was also he he loved english literature. That's something that he shared with his mentor George Williams Walker 17:52.93 Rachel Um. 20:35.33 John W_I_ Lee And those are the classes that you find him often teaching Greek latin german english literature we would know more except you know I mentioned um the the fire right? that that wind up the pain administration building. So the course catalogs basically don't exist except for a few years we have about I don't know a half dozen. 18:35.41 Rachel Um. 21:14.75 John W_I_ Lee Um, in total for the period of his life which is that's really not very much so you can't you can't get all the you can't understand everything that he was that he was doing and maybe you know if any of anybody listening has is in the in in Georgia or North Carolina and has old stuff in their attic. You know, go look go see what you have in your attic because. 19:31.51 Rachel Let me say it. 21:54.71 John W_I_ Lee Um, these documents may exist somewhere and I'm one thing I'm hopeful about the book is it helps to bring out more documents that people might have left somewhere up in the attic or Grandma or grandpa at them and we would be we would we would benefit greatly from rediscovering those. 19:57.91 Rachel Evening. 22:55.30 archpodnet Ah. 23:06.46 archpodnet Wow, that's cool. So you you mentioned I think in the None segment that he had a daughter when he went to greece he left a daughter and his and his wife behind did he have any other children or did his daughter did any of his descendants. 20:15.81 Rachel Yeah, yeah. 23:41.00 archpodnet You know, kind of grew up to be archeologists in their footsteps. 23:05.17 John W_I_ Lee Yes, but in fact, he had he had four children alma was like his oldest thought it was Alma John Junior ah Sarah and then ah Mattie or Juanita she often later would go by and Sarah. 23:53.00 archpodnet Okay, oh. 23:44.85 John W_I_ Lee Died tragically she some some sort of illness. Maybe an appendix or other infection. She was a teenager alma and and Juanita became teachers and John Jr worked he worked in various things and actually moved as far north as as Michigan before dying. 24:27.54 archpodnet Um. 24:23.25 John W_I_ Lee Pretty early but none of his children. He had no grandchildren they none of it. They they all married but they never had any any children and you know and that's another part of the story. Yeah, ah the. 25:12.16 archpodnet Oh wow. 24:51.75 John W_I_ Lee When the children's separated and they all went their own ways. Gilbert's papers that you know anything that he had in the household was was scattered um and that also kind of curtailed. You know it's another aspect to take take us back in a circle to where we began. You know the the documents were lost and I um. 25:41.12 archpodnet M. 25:27.83 John W_I_ Lee It's a great great contrast in the course of my research I was able to meet John Picard's great-granddaughter. So this Picard is you know is Gilbert's teammate in Greece and and she still has documents from her great grandfathernd and I was able to meet and meet his meet the great-granddaughter and. 26:14.50 archpodnet Wow. 26:04.71 John W_I_ Lee You know, let me use these documents from my research and so that's another part of the story is that John Wesley Gilbertbert had no grandchildren ah Dr Millender and I tried to find other relatives but we could not find cousins. It's still possible that you know that that other relatives might surface but there was no direct. No direct. 27:23.46 archpodnet Okay, all right? Well you let's so that's okay, let me start over I lost my turn I thought okay who's our all right? Well we are nearing the end of this interview but I want to hear about a recent trip. You took to Georgia going back there to the. 26:43.63 John W_I_ Lee Descent from his children. 28:00.34 archpodnet To the homeland so to speak as far as John Wesley Gilbert was concerned. 27:25.33 John W_I_ Lee Yeah, yes, so just about a week and a half ago now I was able to go back to Augusta Georgia for the None time since before the pandemic and about 3 years I had of course had been there for several visits during the course of my research. Ah. 28:25.90 archpodnet Um. 28:03.83 John W_I_ Lee And it was a really special experience because you know I mentioned Dr Millender and Reverend Calhoun and the others who helped me I mean this is a story that really belongs to the people of Augusta to the african american community there to pay college and its people and you know i. I've said this before I'm just kind of the messenger who's bringing the story to a wider audience so to be back there after these 3 years of terrible times and to you know to celebrate the publication of the book and the you know the wider attention that it'll bring to Gilbert and Augusta and. 29:20.52 archpodnet Oh. 29:11.71 John W_I_ Lee Kind of in general to the to the achievements of None and none century African-american Education it was a really special moment and I was able to speak at ah at a school a rjohnsonmagnet school which is named after a rjohnson was the None licensed. Black teacher in the state of Georgia and he was also um, John Wesey Gilbert's grammar school teacher. So it was incredible to go there and speak to these. Oh and boy those those students they were so engaged and so interested and they asked me question after question after question. Um, and it was just a really special and. 30:34.24 archpodnet Wow. Ah. 30:49.82 archpodnet Nice. 30:23.95 John W_I_ Lee Moment to to come back to this place that I had been separated from that This story had grown out of and to you know to be able to share this share the publication ah share the publication with him was that was really really special. 31:27.52 archpodnet All right? Well this has been really awesome and informative and it's always great to hear the you know the the legacy that you know Rachel and I are both archaeologists and you know to be honest, it doesn't matter where they're at or where they're from. We all owe. You know something of our careers to the people that came before us and it's nice to hear the stories of those people and how they how they got into the fields they got into and and what they did and and what they left behind. So what's next for you I mean you've been doing this for 6 years now what's What's 31:23.45 John W_I_ Lee Um, you listen. 31:44.13 John W_I_ Lee Ah, we ah yeah, um, good that that my my you know we have 3 children my wife and I and 2 were born during the course of the book and I one of my my big commitments is to spend more time with the with the family. 32:36.44 archpodnet What are you doing now. 32:58.86 archpodnet All right. 32:23.10 John W_I_ Lee And but I am also you know I now I have a foot in two worlds I have a foot in the history of of black education and black classics in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries and I continuing some research on that. Um I have not left behind the the persian empire or a caymanid history. So I have I have a project. Going in that and I hope to get back to Greece which again you know since the pandemic I haven't I haven't been there so answer is I've got and I've got things going in lots of different places but above all I won't know I want to be sure to to give my kids the attention that and my wife did that day you know I spent. 33:47.58 archpodnet Um, yeah. 31:11.30 Rachel The system person. 33:37.21 John W_I_ Lee You know I was working None and I want to I don't want to do I'm not doing that anymore. Not I don't want to but I'm not doing more. 34:27.65 archpodnet Yeah I hear you I hear you? Well we'll have oh go ahead. Rachel. 31:43.75 Rachel I was just going to say well speaking for myself I definitely would love to hear more like forgotten archeologist stories black archeologists or any archeologists of color who may have been lost to history because it's just not. The accomplishments are not necessarily. They're just not necessarily talked about and also because you don't necessarily know what color somebody was that is from a hundred years ago so you might know that not not. You might not know that there's actually a really interesting and awesome black archeologist that you can look up to as a young. 35:49.66 archpodnet Yeah. 32:56.63 Rachel Black child so it just would be really great to have more of those people known to modern day people so that they can have more icons and more people to look up to I Just think that telling those stories is really great. 35:30.70 John W_I_ Lee The apps. Absolutely I agree on that but now I would say that whoever you are that Gilbert if you're an archaeologist, whatever race ethnicity or background. You know he stands as ah as an inspiration. An example, some struggled and achieved and was at. 33:38.19 Rachel Who. 36:32.20 archpodnet Ah. 36:03.91 John W_I_ Lee You know a part of our discipline when it was still growing and and learning and he's one of I mean there there are of course there are others. We can talk about but I think in that sense. He's inspirational to to all of us who work in archeology. 37:02.70 archpodnet Absolutely all right? Well with that take a look down at your phone or look at your computer or whatever we have links to some resources here that you can click on and and check out more about John Wasi Gilbert you can pick up the book and you can. Ah. Learn more about some historical archeologists. Archaeologists end up becoming part of the archeological record themselves at some point which is kind of cool then we can research them as well. It's very meta. So again John thank you very much for coming on the show. 34:58.43 Rachel I Love it. 37:21.59 John W_I_ Lee Thank you so much Rachel and Chris it's really been a delight to speak with you.