00:00.00 archpodnet All right welcome to the show. Everyone Rachel how's it going in stormy humid North Carolina 00:06.79 Rachel Ah, it's not that stormy and actually not that humid. It's a lovely ° out right now. It's really nice actually. Ah new. Yeah. 00:21.60 archpodnet I Don't buy it. 00:35.30 archpodnet That's fake news I don't buy it. So yeah, so we're we're split up this month Rachel is visiting family in North Carolina I'm visiting family in Washington state and we will reconnect next week so to speak I don't know if we'll record another episode before then but hopefully we do and ah. Yeah, that's the joys of living nomatically you can just kind of work from anywhere. So Rachel's working from her family's home for a few weeks. 01:15.79 Rachel Yep yeah, I've got little cute nieces here to play with So I've been working but also distracted and they also gave me a cold. So if my voice sounds a little different. It's because of the little the little disease factories that I've been spending a lot of time with. 01:51.88 archpodnet As an audio engineer I just call it the covid filter and I've been using it for the last two years because everybody's got a cold so man that's right. Okay, so we are going to talk about somebody else who lived back in that area. Ah much longer None than when your family moved there. 01:48.59 Rachel Yeah. 01:55.77 Rachel Ah, that's terrible. Yeah. 02:30.42 archpodnet And to talk about ah John Wesley Gilbert we're going to bring on the author of a recent book and here is a little bit about John Lee before we get into the interview. Okay, so insert bio here I'm not going to read it now and now we're going to go. John welcome to the show. 01:33.20 John W_I_ Lee Um, why Chris it's great to be here and hi rachel nice to meet you both online. 03:18.80 archpodnet Yeah, absolutely So we're we're glad to have you here. We we came in contact with you because I think your publisher was just sending massive links out to anybody who might be able to talk about a book like we get all the time which is great. 03:38.90 Rachel The. 03:49.34 archpodnet It saves us from the legwork of fighting people to talk to. They just kind of say hey can you talk to this person we like? yeah no problem. So um, and and we got ah I think a pdf copy of the um like the pre-publication of of the book which was also great and let's just let's just jump into this. So let's. 03:50.97 Rachel The citizen. 04:28.44 archpodnet You know we're we're going to ask you a bunch of questions about John Resley Gilbert but let's None start about what attracted you or brought you into the knowledge sphere of John Wesley Gilbert how did you come to know about him and then you know enough to write want to write a book about him. 03:18.78 John W_I_ Lee Well the I think the starting point is that I did not set out to write a book about Gilbert at all. And in fact, the history of his life and his wider context african-american history in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries 05:06.24 archpodnet Okay. 03:51.72 John W_I_ Lee Um, was way out of my scholarly field. My main training is in ancient Greece and the caymanid persia the first empire of ancient persia and my previous publications have been on things such as ancient mercenaries and a caymaned persian frontier defense and really nothing that was in. 06:02.64 archpodnet Ah. 04:30.60 John W_I_ Lee Ah, modern history. So I stumbled across professor Gilbert's story really by by accident. 06:13.92 archpodnet Okay, all right? Well how did that happen. 06:14.15 Rachel Um, yeah. 04:54.16 John W_I_ Lee You're going to laugh so ah, obstacle studies and and and ah cave history are fields especially classics that have been very well-trodden and they have centuries of work and so if you want to write something you have to read a lot of secondary literature and I was. Paing through a very good very good german scholarly work on a comed history and I thought I you know I need something different I need something to distract me. It's something that I don't know anything about that does that can I can kind of do as a side project and. I had learned professor Gilbert's name from an article published by a scholar named Michelle Valerie Ronik and Michelle Ronick has done a lot of work with African-american Classic scholars um and I got interested because Gilbert had been a student in Athens at the american school of classical studies which is. 07:45.92 archpodnet No. 06:39.40 John W_I_ Lee A archaeological and historical and literary research institute in in Greece. It's really the the united None overseas research institute. So I thought okay I'll I'll do a little story about about Professor Gilbert first african-american scholar to go to Greece with the american school. It'll be different. Um, you know it'll just get me out of my out of my. 08:20.60 archpodnet Um, yeah. 07:19.20 John W_I_ Lee My secondary literature funk. Ah, and I meant to do this side piece while I kept working on a book on on ah the acaymanid empire and I just found myself drawn into Gilbert's story in a way that I hadn't expected. Um. 09:20.10 archpodnet Ah. 07:55.10 John W_I_ Lee It was all new to me I knew nothing really about about the the period of his life and I didn't even know some of the methods like I had I had to ask my colleagues like how do you work with an archive where do you go if you want to find documentary sources. 09:49.91 Rachel Um. 08:29.38 John W_I_ Lee And slowly slowly this this project took over my life and in the best possible way that I became I just kind of felt like I had to to pursue it further and every time I thought. Okay there's my little article. Um those colleagues I mentioned would suggest other ways I could continue. Investigating and eventually I just decided I'm going to make this my book and I'll come back to the persian empire thing later that was six years ago and the book just came out so it turned into my side project became my six year obsession I guess you could say. 10:43.90 archpodnet Um, wow. And it's only a coincidence. Sorry it's only a coincidence that you share None initials with his name so has nothing to do with him. 10:59.81 Rachel That's amazing I. 09:41.86 John W_I_ Lee Is not interesting. No I Yeah, that's that is entirely a a yeah entirely going into hide' happen hadn't thought about that. But. 11:16.71 Rachel The. 11:27.20 archpodnet Ah, nice. 11:25.59 Rachel So six years of research into the life of one man I'm really intrigued as to how there's such a a depth of information there to to draw your attention for such a length of time. 10:29.76 John W_I_ Lee Yes, well, here's the funny The funny thing is they're actually um, but the starting point of my book is actually the destruction of the main building of Payne College in Augusta Georgia which was the the school that professor Gilbert taught at for virtually his entire. Life he was in fact, he was one of the none students of Payne college which is a historically black college in Augusta Georgia he was one of the none graduates he was its none black professor but the the main building burned it tragically in 1968 and so there the kind of material that you would use archives for. 12:39.80 archpodnet Me. 13:03.54 archpodnet Choose. 12:54.91 Rachel E. 11:42.62 John W_I_ Lee Um, not just professor Gilbert but a lot of the story of the school was destroyed and that was kind of my starting point. Um, and what I had to do and I think what took me those 6 years was to track down every surviving trace I could find of his life of his networks of the history around him. 13:53.78 archpodnet Ah. 12:22.60 John W_I_ Lee Um, and I did that well maybe 1 thing you'd say is that's what ancient historians do right? I mean we are are so used to working with fragments and we work with bits and pieces and I I already had that training and and that kind of transferred into my into my search for for Professor Gilbert's life. 13:57.35 Rachel The. 14:32.20 archpodnet Okay. 13:01.00 John W_I_ Lee Um, and so ah and I also had help along the way I mentioned my colleagues but some of the none people I I encountered online were were None people who become really really close friends. Ah the reverend Ashley Calhoun who's actually in north car and North Carolina and um. Actuallyshley if you're listening to this at some point. Um, thank you again for your help Reverend Calhoun's father Clayton Calhoun had been president of Payne College from 1956 to 1970. It was one of my none contacts and through Reverend Calhoun I met Dr Mallory millender 15:09.67 Rachel She. 15:31.50 archpodnet Wow. 14:14.36 John W_I_ Lee Um, and mallory if you're listening to this? Thank you is a pain college graduate and he is the college's historian so I met these 2 online and we began to chat and talk on the phone and it kind of became like a shared. 15:58.58 archpodnet Okay. 15:53.55 Rachel Fun. 14:48.80 John W_I_ Lee So our shared project together as we work to explore and find every trace we could of Gilbert's life and that that took me to Augusta where I met local community historians and local ah ah, preservation workers and so on it took me to Brown University 16:59.24 archpodnet Ah. 15:25.84 John W_I_ Lee It took me to North Carolina it took me to Greece um, and so it was with the help of my ancient history sleuthing skills and the community that I was able to write the book. Um, you can cut that you can cut off cut out the ah. 17:20.61 archpodnet And. 17:35.14 archpodnet Yeah now I'm going to I want to make a super cut of all the coughing from both of you two and just put it at the end as a bonus track. Ah. 16:05.38 John W_I_ Lee Um, it. But I think you know may have suffered through the coronavirus and I've had ah but and that's that is our I'm just I'm pleased to be talking with you despite recovery sorry you were forget you want. 17:40.35 Rachel Ah, rude. 18:01.44 archpodnet Yeah, you appreciate it? Okay, yeah, back into it. Um, so has there ever any been anything else written about Gilbert Books or you know articles or otherwise. 17:59.39 Rachel Um, yeah. 16:42.58 John W_I_ Lee You Rachel or Chris you had a had a question. 17:00.84 John W_I_ Lee Yeah, yes, actually that's a great question. So ah because of his connection with payne college Gilbert remained well known in the None century in 2 methodist denominations. 18:56.70 archpodnet Oh. 17:27.28 John W_I_ Lee Ah, one Wal Nation is the the christian methodist episcopal or Cme Church that is an african american denomination founded in the south and and very strong in the south but in the None century. There's even a cme church here in Santa Barbara 19:26.18 archpodnet Well. 17:58.88 John W_I_ Lee And the other church is ah the methodist episcopal church south or me Cs which is today part of the United Methodist Church and don't worry I won't test you on the and the denominations ems this was ah was a white denomin a white dominated church. Um, that was formed because its members wanted to keep their slaves in the 1840 s 20:06.16 archpodnet M. 18:38.46 John W_I_ Lee And so these 2 churches the mecs and the cme had founded Payne College in 81 it opened its doors in 84 to educate african americans as teachers and as ministers and to offer. Um. A liberal arts education to to black men and black women. So Gilbert's life was known through the methodist traditions in those None churches especially because he had been part of an interracial missionary venture to what is today the the Congo it was then the belgian congo when he went. So. Story of of Professor Gilbert and his white colleague who was a bishop of the me cs named Walter Russell Lambeth the the Lambeth and Gilbert Mission was well known and people wrote books about that there are a couple of ah books and I mentioned um reverend Ashley Calhoun well his father. Clayton Calhoun wrote perhaps the best of those books in 62 and so there had been books about the missionary part but not about um, any of his archaeological work or really about his the the rest of his life. 22:14.36 archpodnet Oh. 22:32.82 archpodnet Okay, okay, well that's pretty interesting given how how much he did which we'll talk about a little bit later but man I'm kind of surprised he kind of hadn't come up before in archeological context, you know what I mean. 21:23.88 John W_I_ Lee That that's well, that's a really interesting point and I mentioned Michelle Ronick and I think along with other scholars. She really um, helped to bring hidden figures. You could say all such as John Wesley Gilbert back into our awareness because starting in the 90 s. 23:22.60 archpodnet Hm. 22:00.60 John W_I_ Lee You know when electronic searching and databases were were not a thing yet. She really began to to research the lives of these nineteenth and twentieth century ah black scholars who had worked in segregated schools and often were not noticed by histories of classical scholarship. 24:08.60 archpodnet Oh. 22:39.22 John W_I_ Lee So so I kind of have lost my train of thought in answering this questions I may have to yeah, ask me that question again because I forgot where I was going with it for. 24:26.96 archpodnet That no wories no worries Rachel go ahead. 24:24.83 Rachel Well I just needed to ah back up for just a quick moment because can you place in time like where in time this is taking place I'm I'm guessing. It's like late eighteen hundreds early nineteen hundreds timeframe or maybe a little bit later but I just. I Can't remember the dates off the top of my head and I was hoping you could place it in time for me. 23:33.58 John W_I_ Lee Ah, absolutely so so um, John Wesley Gilbert was born in 1863 in south of Augusta Georgia which is in the very eastern edge of the state of Georgia and he died in one 23 so 25:18.54 archpodnet Oh. 25:36.80 archpodnet Okay. 25:29.59 Rachel Um, oh. 24:08.28 John W_I_ Lee Talking about the the civil war the post-civil war era the rise of Jim Crow and then into the early nineteen twenty s so he died about about ah about a century ago. 25:55.42 archpodnet Yeah, okay yeah, was born and raised in interesting times for sure. So all right? Yeah yeah. 26:00.21 Rachel Gotcha. 26:07.70 Rachel Um, yeah. 24:42.90 John W_I_ Lee Um, certainly yes, yes and that's that's part of my my my So the story as well. Yeah. 26:31.72 archpodnet Well, let's talk about that on the other side of the break because I want to talk about the structure and some of the choices you made in Basically how to organize this book as far as a biography goes so we'll do that on the other side of the break. Don't forget to listen to the ads that are coming up. Please it helps support us. This is a. You know an archeology Podcast network. It's not a you know magic moneymaking Machine. So Please listen to some of the ads and it'll help us, especially if you look down at your device and click on them back in a minute. 27:02.79 Rachel Um.