00:00.00 Alan Hey gang here's the final segment this is your host Dr Allen garfinkel for the rock art podcast episode 82 on the archeology podcast network and we're blessed to have a remarkable gentleman who's ah, an enthusiastic. Archaeologist who has been studying rock art and visiting over a hundred rock guard sites and he's going to tell us a bit about his recent experiences down with the great mural rock art on a trip sponsored by the California Rock Guard Foundation Stephen so you decided to go back again after 2019 correct. Okay, and so this is a totally different area. 00:45.45 Stephen Bryne Yeah, yes I I did but to a different area that we didn't visit before. Yes, um, this trip we visited San Gregorio Canyon which is in this and Francisco the same range but a different different canyon and different access. 01:09.30 Alan And how did it differ How did did How did it differ geologically or or you know flouristically or or even in terms of the the kinds of rock art that you saw. 01:17.12 Stephen Bryne Um, well the trip was um, amazing I mean they were both amazing trips and and quite I they're very different because of. Just visiting different sites in the whole experience is is kind of immersive because you have to go you know on on muleback not on horseback but on muleback I asked if you could ride a burrow and they said it's possible, but but your your feet might. Hit the ground because the boroughs are fairly small so they they prefer that you ride a mule but we started that's right um, and apparently the mules are bred differently in Mexico than they are in. 01:55.44 Alan So it looks like it's a mule right? if you want to ride get out get on that mula. 02:08.81 Alan In what way. 02:09.25 Stephen Bryne In the us in the um, the the mother is I believe or excuse me the father of the mule is a borough in Mexico whereas in the us the father is the horse. So. 02:21.28 Alan Okay, okay. 02:27.63 Stephen Bryne You know it's a cross between um, um, a boro and a horse but they they apparently they do that to because the the mules in Mexico are a little bit more docile than the mules in in the us are yeah so just a little a tidbit but. 02:37.25 Alan I Say little little little bit of a difference. So so you're so you're on your mule. You're you're in a different place a different spot. You're still camping your vehicles are gone. You're you're. 02:45.49 Stephen Bryne Yeah. 02:56.34 Alan You're descending these 5000 foot canyons and what do you end up seeing. 03:01.90 Stephen Bryne Um, well, that's a good description because we did leave the village behind and we wrote about we rode for several hours and had a camp the first night and that was just ah. Kind of ah, a convenient place to camp before we drop down into the canyon and so the second day was a full day's ride down into the canyon itself and and as you descend down into. Canyon it's it's very steep the trail in in places we had to actually get off the mules because it was too steep for the mules to or too dangerous for them to carry you as they're going down and you know extremely steep section of Rock. But. 03:46.93 Alan I Always I always thought that was very funny because irying. Yeah funny because we're where we're trying to you know, navigate the trails and you know. 03:47.81 Stephen Bryne The the Vicara's or you funny. 04:05.66 Alan Protect ourselves from any sort of danger right? and and then and then when we get to certain places they tell us well this is too dangerous for the mules and and we need you to get off the mules so they can nab. 04:07.83 Stephen Bryne Yes. 04:24.17 Alan So they can navigate this trail. So if it's too dangerous for the mules. How is it for the humans right? right? Oh yeah, exactly sure sure. 04:30.69 Stephen Bryne Right? Well those mules are very worth a lot of you know they're worth a lot of money to the local people. You know they don't they don't want to risk the mule but we did have 1 participant who was a little too. 04:43.32 Alan Oh no, of course not no. 04:48.29 Stephen Bryne I reticent or afraid to write his mule and he ended up walking the entire route or yeah, most of them I'd say 90% of the route so he he just never became comfortable on the mule or didn't trust the you know didn't trust the mule to. 04:52.86 Alan Ah, ah. 05:04.78 Alan And so what did he do walk along the side. 05:06.61 Stephen Bryne Ah, he just walked on his own in. Um, you know he he made it fine. Ah, but yeah, so that's and that's always an option I guess but. 05:13.32 Alan Nice. It's a lot of walking. Ah I guess so so so ah, you saw some spectacular sights that you hadn't seen before yeah tell me. 05:24.72 Stephen Bryne But I wanted to get back to as as you descent. Yeah, so as you descend down into these canyons. Um, there starts to be water as you get towards the bottoms of the canyons and then. 05:32.91 Alan Tell me about these nights. 05:39.96 Alan Ah, okay. 05:43.50 Stephen Bryne In the bottoms of the canyons. A lot of you know in a lot of cases. They're actually oaces where you know they're palm oases with other um, you know other plants that you you don't see up above and in the desert terrain because you know these are shady. 05:48.60 Alan I. 06:02.31 Stephen Bryne Shady like well watered canyons and that's that's where the villages are too and that's where that's where the rock art sites are for them for the most part. 06:09.99 Alan So you you get to 1 of these canyons with the oases and so tell us about one of these great mural rock art sites that you saw. 06:20.99 Stephen Bryne Ah, okay, well, um, yeah in in San Gregorio we visited a couple of the great mural sites. They're called San Gregorio one in San Gregorio two and those are both fairly close by. But again. Um, huge murals and and just some of the characteristics of of this this giant giant rock art. Um, ah I was going to say um. You know there are a lot of red and black anthropomorphs those are human like figures a lot of times they'll be bisected so half will be half of the figure vertically will be black and half will half will be red. 07:08.23 Alan They look like they're wearing pants. Yep yes. 07:14.11 Stephen Bryne No well, some some are are horizontally bisected but a lot of them are vertically right through right through their you know the ventral area. Um, but the the subjects include you know what look like humans or anthropomorphs and they're animals. 07:20.76 Alan Her. 07:34.63 Stephen Bryne Spears or spear-like lines. There's some smaller figures. There's some colorful grids in checkerboards and the animals include deer and bighorn sheep. 07:45.30 Alan Hey. 07:51.26 Stephen Bryne And for the most part the humans stand erect with outstretched arms and those are just some kind of commonalities between these great mural sites. The colors are mostly red and black and sometimes yellow. And um, let's see yes. 08:13.50 Alan And and sometimes I sometimes I think I remember that are there sometimes ah any indication of of the the sex of these individuals are they gender gendered. Yeah go ahead. 08:23.91 Stephen Bryne Yes, yeah there Yes, some are you can see you know breasts some some some individuals and and you know phalacsis on some um and then. 08:31.40 Alan Ah. 08:38.13 Alan And and are they are They are they all mature are there any sort of immature or or ah children that are also identifying. 08:45.86 Stephen Bryne Um, they all as far as I know they most most appear to be adults I didn't see any you know obvious children or smaller figures. Um, and then yeah I just wanted to mention some of the other material culture that. 08:54.54 Alan Okay, so they're so they're all pretty much adults. Go ahead, please. 09:04.70 Stephen Bryne That is associated with this Kochimi culture that you know ostensibly drew these or painted painted these huge murals they they were known for their their human hair capes and there's. 09:07.25 Alan Please. 09:22.86 Stephen Bryne Very rare but are known the wooden tablets effigy figures smoking and sucking pipes wands of feather feathers and human hair bullroars rattles. Belts and collars those are just some of the you know the the material culture that you you can see these days in in Museums but is is very rare but it's associated with the culture. 09:51.21 Alan Do you ever see those depicted in the paintings. 09:54.00 Stephen Bryne Um, yes, ah I know some of the figures um had seen Net Net bags you can see capes on some of the individuals and when ah. 10:05.38 Alan M. 10:13.90 Stephen Bryne Another interesting thing are these balls that are are seen on some of the figures. They're black balls that are say that look kind of like a ah bowling ball say but on the shoulders of these individuals. Yeah or sometimes on the head. But that's. 10:22.76 Alan Yeah, yeah, on the shoulders and ah ah, ah, exactly exactly fascinating. 10:31.72 Stephen Bryne Nobody really knows the meaning but it's been interpreted as is those are being yeah like ah they may be evidence of like seasonality or or some kind of ah you know, kind of. Constellation or something like that. 10:49.89 Alan Yes, so what did the anthropologists and the archeologists both from Mexico and from the states have to say about their age and their function. How's that. 11:03.78 Stephen Bryne Well I you know I there have been a lot of interpretations from the anthropologists. Um, from the the us anthropologists I don't know of ah. You know the mexican anthropologists but I know a lot of the the animals that are depicted appear to be you know game animals those being deer and bacorn sheep and some of those are are pierced with with Spears or arrows. 11:41.37 Alan Sure. 11:42.43 Stephen Bryne And and so that you know it seems to be some kind of hunting magic or sympathetic. Magic I'm not sure, but this ah I'm trying to ah. As far as the interpretation. The san bojita site I did see that that site was they'd done some radio carmen dating on it. The mexican archaeologists had and and I believe it. It's it. It was me see if I have the date. It was either 5 I but I believe it was 5000 years old is what they had dated it to yeah and in quite cuva day day. La ratton which we visited was dated to 2800 years old so they're they're quite. 12:24.00 Alan Yeah, yeah, very old, very very old very surprising. 12:34.14 Alan Now. 12:38.18 Stephen Bryne You know have a time death. 12:39.40 Alan Right? Yeah, So it's amazing. Yeah, um, so what do you?? How? How are these images ensconced and what are they doing in other words I've heard that there's. Almost like a ah story being told with the paintings or some actually show almost movement is that true. 13:07.24 Stephen Bryne Yes, I mean you could kind of that's been one interpret interpretation that that there there are so many figures that they might might indicate a kind of of movement but um, like the san bojita site. It's it's a huge cave. Um, let's see. Um there are um, 250 or more individual pictographs which gives you an idea of how many you know paintings there are there. Ah. 13:45.43 Alan I'm right. 13:46.32 Stephen Bryne And it's ah the cave itself is is a huge cave. You know it's approximately two hundred feet long by a hundred feet deep and the entire ceiling is covered with paint with paintings and also petrolyphs in that cave on the side. There's a. 14:00.46 Alan Um, really. 14:05.74 Stephen Bryne Yeah, there's a lot of you know yonis and and other petrolyphs in that cave as well. Um. 14:11.41 Alan So that would have that would certainly at least and ends at some level of explanation be associated perhaps with fertility. 14:19.89 Stephen Bryne Yeah, yeah, yeah, um, but in that cave there. There are many of these large figures they in in Harry Crosby who did a lot of work there called these figures Monos and that that is kind of stuck mono means. 14:32.32 Alan Yes. 14:37.63 Stephen Bryne Monkey in spanish so I don't know if that's appropriate anymore. But they they still refer to these these anthropomorphs as mooss. Yeah, and in in in san bojita a lot of the Monos are are actually punctured with arrows or spears. Um, and then there are there are a lot of. 14:43.13 Alan As as Mono's yeah and the. 14:52.62 Alan M. 14:57.18 Stephen Bryne Aquatic forms that are painted too. Those are either turtles or sharks or Rays and and so it it seems like a lot of the the animals that are are pictured would have been Prey Prey items but that's just. My own interpretation.