00:00.10 Alan Hello out there in archeology podcast land this is your host Dr Allen garfinkel with rock art podcast episode 82 and stephen brine is with us an enthusiastic rock art avocationalist. And professional archaeologist and he has recently returned from the outback in the hinterland of the what I like to call the um, the grand canyon of Mexico that. Stephen you met you made it back correct and and 1 and what 1 piece you probably heard stories about but my experiences down there. Yes, so it's girl. 00:36.34 Stephen Bryne yes yes I did no no no yeah no yes ah I you know this was my second. Second trip I first went in 2019 and and then you know wanted to yeah, wanted to come back again. Yes. 00:55.88 Alan Oh you did so where those both craft trips. Oh my word. Okay, who who is the um, ah craft member or the archeologist who helped and the. 01:10.72 Stephen Bryne Ah, Ryan Ryan Ryan Gersner in but for both chaps. 01:15.65 Alan Yeah in both? Oh well, you get you got a pretty good leader or facilitator. He's a he's a bit of a treasure I call him please go right in Steve you were roommates. Ah. 01:20.70 Stephen Bryne Yeah, we we were roommates on the first first trip. Ah we had ah on the first yes on the first trip. 01:33.73 Alan Ah, oh my word. 01:38.00 Stephen Bryne We shared room and also Ryan's parents came which was made it kind of interesting. Yeah, but but we had a great time. Yeah. 01:40.23 Alan Oh my word. Wow wow we zoie well that must have been very interesting. Yeah so on the first trip. What particular sights ah did you see or. 01:56.36 Stephen Bryne Up. 01:59.51 Alan And and maybe just be able to sort of paint a word picture of the preparations and the circumstances of of kind of dealing with the nature of access and what what goes on what goes into a trip like this. 02:12.33 Stephen Bryne Sure, um, well just as far as background I was interested in. You know, going down to baha for some some years because again because of the nexus the Campbell Grant Nexus um him having traveled down there and written a book about it and being a carpenteria resident and I had his book and you know I was familiar with some of the other texts from there so I wanted to go and then I saw that Kraft was offering a trip in 2019 to to the sier id. San Francisco and so I signed up and ah basically flew flew to loretto and then we the participants were picked up by Trudy who run saddling south and and we were driven to. Um, mula hay where we stayed and and then from there we took a van to visit. Ah, the some various rock art sites in in the sierra da San Francisco in particular part part paraal canyon but like you like you mentioned Ellen these canyons are kind of fantastic in their own right? they're very deep ah you know probably two thousand feet deep canyons and they're very inaccessible um even on foot which is why you have to take a mule or you know or horseback down down into the canyons or that's how the the local people get there and that's what we did. 03:53.76 Alan So when do you when do you meet your mule. How does that How does that work when do you meet your mule. Yeah. 03:59.70 Stephen Bryne But pardon when do you meet your mule. Well um, yes, so ah, basically the the way this system is set up. You. You have to get a permit from Eno which is you know the mexican. Ah, national organization and that's usually in the nearest village to the the rock art Site. You're going to to visit and and unless you're walking you know unless the site's within walking distance of the village then you're going to take a mule to to the site and that's what we did we? We took the van. 04:23.88 Alan Um, okay. 04:32.73 Alan Um, get the. 04:37.91 Stephen Bryne Um, to a small village and and that's where we met the the vacaro that those are the the guys that run the run the mules and the burroughs and and they they select a mule for you based on you know, basically your body weight or or if you've ridden before and. 04:43.28 Alan Um, ah yeah, yeah. 04:57.56 Stephen Bryne And you you get that mule for the entire trip and then they also have like pardons um on the the first trip let me see one two 3 4 5 6 7 8 I think there were nine nine participants on in 2019 04:59.51 Alan How many participants were there. How many participants were there on the. 05:10.14 Alan On the 29 trip oh wow yeah okay and so everybody get everybody gets their mule. You met the vocaos and then ah you dump on the mule. 05:17.28 Stephen Bryne Yeah, um, so that. 05:26.87 Stephen Bryne Well so you you take your personal gear with you on the mule just whatever you need for the day and that that might be in a backpack or in saddle bags and then there's there's ah, a pack train essentially that goes along with. 05:27.35 Alan And what happens next. 05:33.00 Alan Right. 05:45.48 Stephen Bryne The the mules and and those are donkeys or burros that are loaded with you know all the camping year the cooking year food et cetera you know and and so the burros do a lot of the work because they're hauling all the all the equipment and. And the vicaro will drive the burrows either in front ah or behind the group. The group of riders in some vacaro ride horses but most ride mules and the mules themselves are just amazing animals. They they they're able to walk on. This very uneven rocky surface and and they're not frightened at all of extreme drop offs you know on on either side of the trail and and they're very surefooted I I asked ah Trudy I believe the first trip I said you know. But have you ever seen. Ah a mule fault or fall or anything on on one of your trips and and she said well no I I've never seen one fall one one did go down to its knees once but you know and that gave me a lot of confidence because they they're just. Extremely sure-footed beasts. 07:00.52 Alan Yeah, what about the burros are they surefooted or do they they sometimes ah have some problems. 07:10.47 Stephen Bryne They are very surefooted Also yeah, but they they're a little bit more. They have a mind of of their own and they tend to wander and so they really have to herd the boroughs The vicaras. 07:20.14 Alan I had. 07:28.84 Stephen Bryne Make an effort to you know, keep them in line. The boroughs tend to wander off whenever they get a chance and so that it's always they're always trying to you know corral the burroughs or keep them on track but 1 of the one of the writers was explaining to me on this trip. 07:37.86 Alan Um, and I say. 07:45.27 Stephen Bryne She is. She is a horsewoman so she has horses and mules here in the United States but she she said she told me that mules you know are very stubborn hence hence the term stubborn as a mule but and so you can't make a mule do what it. 07:49.24 Alan Well. 07:57.68 Alan Um, right. 08:04.97 Stephen Bryne It doesn't want to do it. Will it just physically will not go some places whereas she said a horse you can make a horse do anything. You can make a horse jump off a cliff. Ah, but you know contrarily a mule will never do that and so you have to trust the mule in in you know. 08:18.71 Alan Um, see. 08:24.82 Stephen Bryne Trust its innate ability to navigate these you know steep ah Canyon walls. Essentially. 08:35.34 Alan So the burroughs themselves follow in some sort of a pack train and and they're fairly surefooted as well. So you've got this very long dog and pony show going on with all these burrows all these. 08:40.72 Stephen Bryne But yes. 08:55.20 Alan Ah, participants Vcaros how many vocaros are are there. 08:57.66 Stephen Bryne Um, there's usually a vicaro for you know for each participant because they essentially rent the the mules to trudy or for for each trip and and then and then they have you know boroughs to. 09:07.41 Alan Um, yeah, ah. 09:16.61 Stephen Bryne That they're in charge of so you know I'd say it's like a 1 to 1 ratio kind of thing we did have we did have and kind of an amazing ah young woman who is the daughter of 1 of the vicaros and his son also accompanied us this trip and he. 09:16.71 Alan Okay, okay, interesting. 09:36.34 Stephen Bryne The son I believe he was 10 and the daughter was 18 and they you know they can ride in rope and do everything it's they're just amazing. So that was kind of an added bonus for this trip I I think. 09:36.47 Alan Aha. 09:49.96 Alan So there there is adept as the voquiros that have learned from their parents mainly from the men I would believe how to ride and rope and steer and do all the different things that the vackiros have to do to? ah. 09:57.31 Stephen Bryne Yeah, yeah. 10:09.70 Alan Commandeer this particular show and how do they? Yeah, how do they keep the go ahead. Go ahead. 10:15.77 Stephen Bryne that's that's right um in you know going I was just gonna say going down into these canyons is you know say it was an all day ride this this year to get down into the bottom of the canyon where. 10:27.55 Alan Um, yeah. 10:33.68 Stephen Bryne You know the rock art sites are and and that's the only only way in and out so the residents of the small village where we stayed I I asked how many residents there were and I think they said the population was 6 or 6 or 10 So it's a very small village but. 10:33.93 Alan Right. 10:53.51 Stephen Bryne There's no way in or out other than riding a you know? ah a horse or ah or Burro or a very long walk. So these you know the villages that are in the bottoms of these canyons are extremely remote. 11:06.90 Alan Now these villages of which there's a very small number of people that live in this area of Sierra Day San Francisco these publitos. Um, how do they? Yeah, how do they live and what what's the economic basis. 11:24.95 Stephen Bryne Yeah, that's a really good question So there's really only one industry that we we saw and that's that's hurting goats and and also making goat cheese or making cheese from the goat's milk. 11:26.25 Alan For them to allow them to continue. Please. 11:42.84 Alan Um I say. 11:44.60 Stephen Bryne And we saw you know they they showed us some of the cheese making that they do and they they produce a really fresh cheese that's kind of the consistency of like a monzzarella cheese and and we bought some cheese this trip from from the people that were making it and um. 11:57.25 Alan Well stop. 12:03.78 Stephen Bryne They also slaughtered 2 goats on this trip to to make ah beatia which is the goats the traditional goats stew and that was that was for one of the vicaras was had a birthday and so they you know they kind of combined our trip in the birthday and had a. Kind of a fiesta with with the goats stew so that that was quite amazing too. It was but but the economy is really sorry I was just going to say the economy is really limited because the the environment is. 12:27.86 Alan I'll bet that was wonderful. So they they they were use campus please. 12:40.55 Stephen Bryne Pretty harsh. It's It's essentially desert. Well it is. That's the viscaino desert and and so but there's not enough forage for even a horse to to exist on or or Cattle. So Only really only Goats. Or other or maybe sheep I'm not sure I didn't see any sheep but goats goats are the main you know industry there and each each Vacaro has a herd of goats as well that he manages or his family manages and that's. That's their subsistence for the most part. 13:20.50 Alan So when you were there you spent time with these publitos and and the families and what particular sites did you see in 2019 13:35.32 Stephen Bryne Let's see in 2019. We started off at San Bohita which is the southern most I believe it's the southern most great great mural site. And that's just kind of on its own. But when we went into the the sierra de San Francisco and and Parole Canyon we we visited queesta Del Palm marito or palmerito is quite a famous site. Cor corallito is another. Fairly well-known site and then the probably the the 2 most famous were cueva de laser serpiente or serpents cave and super nova or it's also known as La Clarita so those were those are all. 14:21.36 Alan So those were very well known that great mural sites. Yeah and they were there in the heart of the sierra de San Francisco correct so 14:28.15 Stephen Bryne Great Sorry all great mural size. Yeah. Yes, Sir. Um. 14:39.20 Alan Largest site was the was the one that had sub interpretation on it and that's when you went to in 2019 or no. 14:44.87 Stephen Bryne Um, well Sir Cuva de La Serpiente is probably the most famous of those and that has this you know giant serpent mural that's been interpreted on on the wall of the. 14:52.49 Alan Okay. 15:04.11 Alan I see yeah so and and how big is that picture I understand that these are some of the largest ah animal depictions. 15:04.47 Stephen Bryne A rock shelter. 15:08.56 Stephen Bryne Um. 15:20.69 Stephen Bryne Yes I believe so um, let's see I'm I'm looking for my notes on on this serpiente. Ah, let's see. Ah. 15:21.14 Alan In the world some of them correct. 15:38.94 Stephen Bryne I'm I'm thinking let's excuse me I'm just looking at my notes a second um the the mural I believe the the mural or the painting of the the serpent is twenty six feet long so it's it's quite you know? Yeah, it's huge. 15:51.65 Alan Oh my word. It's enormous. That's huge and then um and it's what. 15:58.37 Stephen Bryne Um, in its I was just going to say that Ron Smith what previous researcher has has done a paper on on just this site and interpreting this this particular pictograph. 16:13.22 Alan Right? So yeah, he's he yeah did a handful maybe half a dozen different articles and rather remarkable research sort of integrating sacred narrative and ethnography and and other. 16:16.33 Stephen Bryne Yeah, fine. 16:31.49 Alan Ah, anthropologically relevant information and I thought that his his ah I think his articles were some of the most more interesting ones that I read go ahead I think that I think some of his articles were some the more interesting ones that I I read please. 16:40.30 Stephen Bryne Pardon yeah I I took a couple of notes on him and in his interpretation of the serpent cave and and he. Had started visiting ba behind 1979 which is you know quite a while ago and um, he he put a lot of effort into this particular site and wrote an article about it but he he kind of interpreted this site the the native people the coaching me. And have 6 seasons and that probably one of the important seasons is is when they harvest the the pataia the fruit this cactus fruit which is a big that was probably their most important food source and the serpent. Was ah according to him was the bringer of the patah fruit. So that yeah yeah would have been. Um, yeah. 17:40.37 Alan fascinating absolutely fascinating yeah makes make yeah and that and that that does jive with a lot of our understanding cross culturally about animal ceremonialism and metaphor. Well, we've run out of time for the second segment. And then the last one I I hope that we can sort of drill down and talk about what you learned and what you saw on this most recent trip see in the flip flop gang. 18:05.98 Stephen Bryne Sure.