00:01.39 archpodnet Welcome back to the rock art podcast episode. 1 eighteen we're talking about am or indian which is a hard word to say perspectivism. So let's ah I want to I want to talk a little bit more about you know astronomy cosmology things like that because. 00:05.96 alan There you go. 00:17.50 archpodnet I know I've definitely talked to people who you know even people who are archeologists but they find it hard to believe because of our own perspectiveivism that native americans or anybody around the world could have possibly aligned an entire structure or or city if you will or or even something as small as a. You know, an alignment of rocks to something astronomical like the solstice or you know something else that that is regular and and predictable and I'm like man if you just live that every single day again. It goes back to this perspective of just living that kind of thing every single day and being in it. It becomes. More obvious than to people like us who we you know there's days when people don't go outside. There's days when I don't go outside. You know what? I mean because I don't have to It's a terrible day right here down in Mexico. It's been forty mile an hour wins I went outside once and I can do that? Um, and so. 00:58.82 alan Exactly. Yeah, exactly. So so there's there's there. There's there's two sites I want to talk about very quickly one I've talked about before it's called Mary's cave and if Mary's cave isn't an aoastronomical site. It's it's you know it's nothing. 01:12.84 archpodnet It's It's great. Yeah. 01:19.92 archpodnet Oh. 01:23.41 alan Because the entire roof of that cave is is is painted with Cosmic Elements. You know its its stars and moons and brights and and cosmic this and cosmic that and so completely enraptured. Ah, encased in this particular rock shelter is sort of this cosmological nexus all beautifully ensconced in this cave and so the archaeologists when they went in there One of the first things they do is Wow This is really quite interesting and they identified that if you're at that cave. During the ah winter solstice I think it's sunrise or sunset be sunrise and also during the equinox along the Horizon specifically on the Horizon. There's a niche that you can watch and see that sun come up in that absolute Niche. And it's there and that and that it's an an absolute Alignment. An Astronomer spent the better part of I think it was 20 years studying that site and came up with you know much more specific evidence compelling evidence that this is exactly what's going on there the other one that I want to talk about briefly is. 02:20.30 archpodnet Oh. 02:38.28 alan Out there in Walker go ahead. Yeah shoot. 02:38.60 archpodnet Um, and you know. 02:43.39 archpodnet Real quick on on Mary's cave. We often talk about relative dating in rock art and if you see an animal for example on rock art that is extinct. Well you know that the rock art must must date to at least that point where the animal existed right? because they they would have known about it now. It's. 02:58.21 alan Right? right? right. 03:03.27 archpodnet Course replicate thing like that now Mary's cave and and these astronomical alignments I'm thinking of like serpent mound in Ohio where serpent mound doesn't quite line up with the solstice. But if you if you roll it back to some of the other dateable elements there. It does right? because if you go back thousands of. 03:18.14 alan Yeah, you're exact. Yes, he he was it. He was able to reconstruct precisely the ah years the particular pattern of years when that particular intersection would be precisely manifested exactly exactly in that notch. 03:21.88 archpodnet And most. 03:29.17 archpodnet Ah. 03:32.46 archpodnet Right. 03:35.45 alan And it it was back to about a d 1500 and a little bit earlier than that as well. So between a d a thousand and fifteen hundred that sun came up in that notch just precisely there and um, he was said he he was he was saying that even. 03:41.20 archpodnet Oh. 03:51.31 archpodnet Yep, yeah. 03:53.36 alan Even given the clarity of the horizon in the desert area. He said there's a green burst of of of solarization that comes when that sun pops up on that horizon and he has seen it before so he he wanted to make that known. Um, also on walker pass in the far Southern Sierra the highest peak in that part of the part of the country you go to a big split rock up on the hillside and there is a depiction of the sun coming up over that mountain. Well if you're there on winter sols to sunrise as I was with the. 04:16.51 archpodnet Ah. 04:32.67 alan Native people that are descendants of that tribe that lives there lo and behold that sun just sits right there on top of that peak and it sits there for about better part of maybe 30 seconds to a minute and it is precisely sitting sitting on that peak and this glowing orb. 04:45.98 archpodnet Wow. 04:51.00 alan You know, pops up and and brightens up the entire hillside. It is magnificent and I'd I'd have to say it's one of the highlights of my life to experience that amazing. It's 1 thing it's 1 thing to see pictures of it. It's 1 thing to see pictures of it. It's another thing to actually be there and wait. 04:56.99 archpodnet M. 05:03.34 archpodnet Wow, That's really cool. 05:10.31 alan In the cold dawn freezing your butt off waiting and when is that sun coming up. Why is this light not hitting hitting. It's It's not going to come up I don't care. You know, let's let's go and then finally it shows up. You can see it creeping creeping ever so slowly then Boom you know this giant orb hits. 05:23.16 archpodnet Ah. 05:29.52 alan And pops up and and and brightens the entire side of the hillside. But um on the ah go ahead. Yeah, please your turn. 05:30.48 archpodnet Yeah. 05:37.33 archpodnet You know I got to good quick question on on. Ah I mean talking about perspectivism and how that changes through time does I don't know if anybody's actually studied this or not. But if you were to look at the say the rock art in one area and and we know. You know we can we can infer that certain you know panels and elements are older than others you know through various means but is do you know if there's a ah prevalence let's take the coso rock art of like say China lake or something like that little pedro of canyon with there's so many. 05:56.40 alan So. 06:09.16 archpodnet Do you see a shift in the focus of the rock art through time like maybe there's more animals in this period and more um you know astronomical elements during this period and things like that were yeah okay, that's awesome. 06:14.62 alan Oh absolutely Absolutely absolutely early The earliest the earliest rock art that you see like in the cosos and they've dated it through Associations and other ways to to date this stuff. 06:31.11 archpodnet Of who. 06:33.64 alan Is a very deeply it gouged almost sculptural rock art that's completely abstract and that's you know ten ten thousand years old at least minimum then you get this burst of cosmological wonder. 06:43.66 archpodnet Okay, um. 06:53.16 alan You get these decorated animal-human figures that are mostly female and there they are. They are just so finely etched pecked in Beauty They're big, they're they're effervescent. They're flamboyant. They're they're gorgeous and then the next thing is from from that patterned body. They become solid-bodied they lose the patterning in their torsos and they become solid and during after that's when the solid bodies come in. 07:13.29 archpodnet Oh. 07:30.17 alan That's when the big corn sheep hunters come in in a big way. That's when you start seeing them hunting them with ah lotels and then seeing them with bows and arrows and that's the big time for the hunting of bighorn sheep because the big coin sheep move in there and then they become the dominant element. No more is it Animalhuman figures. It's the Bighorn. So then that's that that's that's the the last gasp of you know when you get larger than lifesize bighorn sheep and you got this whole repertoire going in there. Um, that's the cosos and then of course after that you've got. 07:53.42 archpodnet Um, no right. 08:09.32 alan Scratching you've got numbic scratching and and the embellishment of this and pictographs paintings that are all over the place that are relatively recent So there is definite chapters and different periods and different ah representations and subject matter. 08:10.22 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 08:19.71 archpodnet Um, no. 08:28.83 alan And characterizations of the iconography subject matter and patterns depicted for different periods of time and so native people often see the natural world as one that's transfixed with power. And that term for power is different in all the different languages of the world but in the west they call it pooha or booha and this power this this energy this this ah mojo it was something that was intertwined with everyday life. It was something that existed as the tapestry of daily existence. It's something that places places had power and people had power and animals had power and varying amounts of that power were important. You could acquire power. You could lose power. 09:14.11 archpodnet Um. 09:26.70 alan And it just depended upon who you were and how how much power you had as to how much influence you might have over the supernatural realm. 09:39.21 archpodnet Um. 09:40.79 alan So These these rituals these ah sacred narratives these ceremonials they were ah partly about trying to ah Benchmark one's existence and deal with sort of the. This animated world this interconnected ideology this this web and cycle of life and everything about you. Everything you saw you tasted you touched was alive with power animals. Mountains Rocks Caves Springs Lakes trees lightning wind. They all had life in them. Agency they all were sentient beings. They were not simply a metaphor but every part of the day and every movement was a reality to these people they could they could sense. They could sense it they would they would they would. 10:29.82 archpodnet Oh. 10:35.10 alan Understand or grok or grasp what was going on by by testing the waters or or sort of getting a sense of what was going on in this in the universe when they were walking upon the land. 10:51.60 archpodnet So to wrap up how does this knowledge of of perspectivism and and through time for different native American groups help Archaeologists understand and study them through. 11:07.46 alan Well when you see pictures on the rocks I think you get a much deeper sense of what they're trying to communicate I Think if you can grasp even superficially anything from what I've said then you can at least come to. 11:08.58 archpodnet You know, throw work. 11:20.18 archpodnet So. 11:26.93 alan Some superficial sense some sort of tangential way of of at least grasping um a minute amount of what is going on in these paintings these pictures these panels. They're not just you know brick brack. They're not just you know so. 11:44.48 archpodnet Um. 11:46.39 alan To maring things they are They are embellishments and communications of ancient people that that communicate who they were what they were their passions. Their beliefs they'rere. They're sacred stories and they're communicating something to us. 11:51.57 archpodnet Friend first. 12:05.14 alan About their world. 12:09.39 archpodnet Okay, well I think with that we will call it. This is this is an awesome kind of wrap up to some of the perspectivism focused podcast that we've had in the last few weeks or the last few episodes I should say and you know. It's a never ending conversation. Basically so take a look at your show notes. We've got the link to the archeology show the most recent episode that came out just before this one did actually there's probably too. But anyway, it's a link in the show notes and then we'll have a link to Alan's powerpoint presentation on this very topic also in the show notes. So with that. I think we'll see you guys next time and thanks for listening. 12:46.89 alan Take care gag.