00:00.00 heritagevoices Okay, so we're Back. We were just finishing talking about your Ph D experience and can you can you talk a little bit more like after you finished your your Ph d. What how did you decide where to go from there and and where where did you go from? yeah. 00:21.57 Liana Chua Um, yeah, okay, so up to my ph d I thought you know I should try and make full use of the the linguistic the cultural skills I picked up because you know be a bit of a shame otherwise um, and and I thought I'd really like to carry on. You know, doing research with with bedayus. And so as I was as I was writing up my ph d I was back in our catching up on stuff when I heard about this dam project that was being planned about half an hour's drive away from where I'd been doing my field work so this was a ah neighboring quite closely related bideyu region. Where um, a very large tributary of Theraak River had been earmarked by the government to to create a new dam that would help to secure the capital city's water supply so it wasn't a hydroelectric dam. It was just a you know, straightforward kind of reservoir. That would benefit the capital city and and and so there were 4 quite small and quite remote. Well relatively remote bideu villages that were located in the mountain range that this tributary ran through they were between about 3 to 5 hours walk from the nearest road up these quite steep hills and across. Across lots of small rivers and things and big riverpps in fact um, and so I became really interested in in in this situation and I thought you know since since I'd looked at religious change. 01:48.15 Liana Chua Politics in my ph d field work. It might be quite interesting to look at a different kind of change which was all about environmental transformations and the way that people were experiencing. What could be really quite a radical rupture from a sort of swindden agriculture-based life up in the hills to a much more kind of urban. Um, and quite likely wage-earning life in an official or resettlement site along the road that was not in their customary land. So um, a couple a year after I finished doing my ph d field work I got research commission and funding to come. And start a new research project with these 4 villages that were affected by the dam and what I was basically trying to do was understand their their perceptions their experiences of resettlement but also by extension really quite drastic environmental change. Um, so this was only meant to be a kind of 2 or 3 year project because the the inundation was actually due to start. We thought in about Twenty Ten Twenty Eleven um as it happened this turned into a much much longer um research commitment that I'm still very invested in in all sorts of ways albeit mostly from a distance these days. Ah, because it took a lot longer than that for the whole thing to play out. There were various complications along the way there were a lot of disagreements among the affected communities and 1 of the most interesting things I found was that um, a pretty significant majority of the affected villages were actually um. 03:20.95 Liana Chua Keen to move to the resettlement site and there were lots of different reasons for this. Um, you know some people felt that they really wanted to give up the backbreaking work of rice planting and and quite a difficultto-reach Area. You know where they didn't necessarily have easy access to hospitals to schools to shops and their relatives in town and stuff. Um, and to become modern and to you know, kind of start earning wages instead of being rice bombers um some people just weren't that keen on moving but then they felt they had to move because ah the the little village schools and Village Health facilities were being closed down and moved to the resettlement site so they had to move with The. Um, with with these um facilities to make sure that their children had a good future. Um, and some people just kind of you know, fancied a bit of a change So quite a lot of people were actually keen to go even if they weren't necessarily happy about leaving their customary lands behind and then ah, a. Small but fairly significant minority um were very against moving out of their ancestral lands and so as my research progressed you know and I initially started out working with quite a broad crosssection of people across those 4 villages. Um, to try and understand the varied perceptions and concerns about resettlement. But I very slowly became more sort of interested in in this long-running duch. Let's try that Again. Let's go Back. So So um. 04:51.22 Liana Chua I initially started out working with a broad cross section of the 4 affected villages and trying to understand different perceptions of resettlement. Why different people wanted to do different things. But as time moved on um I ah sort of gradually became more interested in a small group of people who were quite actively resisting. Resettlement and who who undertook this very painful and very long-running legal case that went on for about 6 years to to obtain official recognition of their customary land rights in their areas directly above the inundation. Zone. So right? above the new reservoir. Rather than be forced to move down to the resettlement site. Um, and so I ended up you know as as my research progressed focusing a little bit more on their experiences of going through this indigenous rights case. 05:42.28 Liana Chua And the way they they worked with lots of different parties including lawyers. You know, politicians indigenous movements. The media all sorts of well-meaning journalists who were coming from different parts of Malaysia and the world um to try and sort of build up this project to stay where they were. Um, for for various reasons and so that sort of became the you know I didn't quite mean it to end up that way. But once I started getting pulled in that direction. It became harder and harder to maintain. Um, my. My connections with the other people who are all kind of dispersing and moving back moving out to the resettlement site or to you know urban areas with their compensation money. Um, and so it was an interesting case again of kind of following following a lead. Um, but in this case, it ended up really narrowing my research focus. Onto this one particular case and the experiences of these these people who resisted resettlement and in the end after about 6 years and against all expectations these guys won ah they ended up building a brand new village from scratch in their ancestral lands right? above the dam itself. Um, and they're still there today. 06:45.95 heritagevoices Oh well. 06:56.38 Liana Chua And now I've I've sort of slightly shifted my research focus to try and understand what exactly it is. They're doing to survive in this new village that you know had previously been just inconceivable that that the state and they and other bidu simply had no conceptual room to imagine but it is there. So the question is you know what do we do when we're actually in this place. How do we make a new village a new village and keep it keep it going somehow. So yeah, that's ah, that's where I am now but it's it's it's been a really longterm research thing that's stretched out for over fifteen years now 07:34.40 heritagevoices Wow yeah god every time I go to respond today might get all horse apparently um, so give me a second one have some tea. 07:44.53 Liana Chua And. 08:04.00 heritagevoices Okay, um, so would you rather if I asked um about like learning moments along the way or highlights maybe um. Of like. 08:20.19 Liana Chua Um I don't mind. Um I mean maybe learning moments which which might then sa into highlights if I if I do this right. 08:31.91 heritagevoices Okay, okay, okay, okay now I have to take another sub to you one second. 08:35.30 Liana Chua I'm not quite sure but the big go put it out. Okay. 08:52.78 heritagevoices Okay, now I have to like get myself back in that place of you were just talking about. Okay, um, okay, yeah I mean first of all, that's that's very um, impressive, amazing. Um. Very exciting for this this group of people that they were able to make that happen. You know you hear so many stories where that doesn't happen. So that's um, that's really awesome and I'm curious. You know going through that experience. Um, you know with this group of people. 09:18.55 Liana Chua Um. 09:27.40 heritagevoices I'm sure that there were a lot of learning moments. So can you can you talk about? Well what some of those were for you. 09:34.45 Liana Chua Yeah, yeah, no there were there were loads of learning moments. Um, and I think I think possibly the biggest learning moment was was when I realized you know after having started doing research in in these 4 villages that. 09:50.84 Liana Chua Think all my kind of slightly romantic you know, um I wanted to change the world preconceptions had to be held in check for a bit because you know normally if you if you're sort coming in from the outside and you look at a situation like that. 10:05.41 Liana Chua Generally your at least my instinct is to think oh my goodness you know, small squashed indigenous group bravely fighting against big bad government that's trying to resettle them. Um, and and I think I realized very quickly that actually this it was much more nuanced and complicated on the ground than. Could have expected you know just coming in from the outside realizing that actually so many people for whatever reason wanted to move to the resettlement site and you know genuinely believed in this project of modernity and kind of you know, becoming modern and and people and and becoming Urban. Um. Really sort of disrupted. Ah any preconceptions I might have had about you know? Um, what indigenous people might actually want and I think at that point I Suddenly realized that there was a risk that I'd been sort of slotting them into a slightly Naive. You know, black and white moral dichotomy. Um, and so that kind of pushed me to start taking a lot more seriously the the different ways in which people were articulating the desire to Move. You know the different aspirations and hopes and concerns and fears that they had you know it wasn't as if all of them were brainwashed or something or that they were all kind of selling out. There were lots and lots of. Different reasons that people felt that a move to the to the resettlement site was a good idea. Um, and I had to take those seriously so you know I've I've been very very cautious in writing about this situation of making it sound like this was just a straightforward case of an indigenous group you know being. 11:41.49 Liana Chua Squashed by and by government I mean I think you know it's important not to downplay the power dynamics that were involved and the fact that no matter what happened these communities were still very much on the back foot. Um, but at the same time you know there were various sort of glimmers of of agency and hope. And aspiration that we we really can't dismiss. We we have to really try to understand and grapple with as anthropologists. Even if it feels uncomfortable to us. Um, so that was 1 thing kind of you know, learning to take seriously the people who genuinely wanted to be resettled the guys who did want to move eventually. Um, but I think the second thing and this. This is sort of related was trying to figure out how to deal with the anti-resettlement group. Ah because you know I think in many ways the anti-resettlement group um, saw me as a potential resource you know here I was an anthropologist. You know with good connections big schooling as they say um, who could help them with their with their resistance to the resettlement scheme. Um, now I was in a slightly awkward situation because I was there in a research permit. 12:41.39 heritagevoices Um. 12:52.72 Liana Chua Ah, which very very clearly said you know you are not to get involved in any of this stuff they they were aware that this was a very very contentious scheme and they you know, very clearly said you know if you get involved in any sort of Activism or anti-resettlement activity you're out and I think you know actually that's one of the constraints that. 13:06.99 heritagevoices Um. 13:08.79 Liana Chua As anthropologists we don't we very often. Don't talk about we have to deal with these bureaucracies and these these threats and and risks um to both ourselves and our interlocutors. Um and we need to take those seriously as well. 13:13.36 heritagevoices Um, right. 13:19.99 Liana Chua But of course the other point was that I was also very aware that it was difficult to paint a simplistic you know, black or white moral picture of the situation because I knew there were so many people in the situation who actually did want to move so there really wasn't a clear sort of you know, right? or wrong in this case, Um, and so I think knowing that um. 13:34.23 heritagevoices Um. 13:38.50 Liana Chua Made me sort of pause and try and figure out how best I could work with with this with this anti-resettlement group and so I made it very clear to them that I was limited in how much I could support them and that you know, um I would basically be there ah to to try to help them document and talk through. Um, their experiences you know I try to capture the stories. The lived experiences that they were going through but I could not in any way advocate for them in any sort of explicit way because that really wasn't within my remit or my capabilities and and I think they understood that. So. I stepped back? Um I spent a lot of time listening and learning and recording. You know I captured oral Histories stories about villagers about Ancestors particular families individuals relations with the with the environment ritual religious beliefs including with christianity. Um. And I wasn't quite sure what I do with a lot of this material in the end but I felt that it was important to to be listening and and documenting this stuff. Um and then eventually as it happened Um, at one point when the indigenous rights case was being prepared. Ah one of the. People who was helping with this case who was in fact, also an anthropologist from the local University who was working with the lawyers got in touch and said look you know can we? you've got all this documentation all these oral Histories. You know all these stories about the landscape we need to collate material and evidence for this case. 15:06.38 Liana Chua Are you willing to share that with us and you know for me that was that was one way that I felt that I could actually help and and stand with my interlocutors without necessarily being overtly involved in in resisting. 15:15.17 heritagevoices Um. 15:21.28 Liana Chua Scheme and so I you know I sort of handed over a lot of the material that I collated and that was then combined along with other material including archive Sources. You know other oral histories into this much bigger portfolio of evidence that was then used to make a case. For their native customary land rights in the area so it sort of I played this a very very small part in that. Um and I think what that made me realize was you know sometimes it's not about shouting as loud as you can or you know, kind of getting directly involved and in. Politics or activism Sometimes it is about just stepping back and and kind of just shutting up and listening and documenting and and collecting stories. Um, and sometimes that will then give you a chance to make a difference in in a small way but in a way that can actually be beneficial to your interlocutors. So um. That that's that's a really important burning moment that I've hung on to I think. 16:15.90 heritagevoices So. 16:23.15 heritagevoices Let's see we have a few minutes. Um, is there like so other than the um Theurangutan work that we're going to get to in the next segment is there like something else that you want to use the. 16:33.72 Liana Chua Um, you know. 16:40.25 heritagevoices You know the last few minutes to touch on of other work that I can ask you about I know I know that's it's always hard. Yeah, and obviously like this conversation part will get cut out of it. But. 16:42.54 Liana Chua Um, um, a few minutes. Um, that's tricky isn't it. 16:57.75 Liana Chua Um, yeah, um. 17:05.27 heritagevoices Do or do you want me to ask about highlights or I mean it sounded like you were kind of getting into that at the end right there? Yeah um. 17:06.14 Liana Chua Um, I mean like. 17:12.38 Liana Chua I Mean in a way that was sort of a highlight. You know it's um, it's a quiet highlight if that makes sense. Ah I mean we could I could say something about what's happening to the to the village Now you know the new village that they build from scratch. Okay. 17:23.20 heritagevoices Yeah, perfect. Yeah yeah, do you want me to ask you that or do you want to just go into it. Okay, yeah, perfect. Okay, um, okay, let's see how do I want to frame this. 17:30.25 Liana Chua I Mean it might be easy if you asked me that. 17:42.15 heritagevoices Yeah, so obviously it's It's been some time. It sounds like since this legal battle happened and you mentioned um this interest in um, you know how do you create a a new village. Um. 17:49.87 Liana Chua Um, the. 17:58.16 heritagevoices So how are how are things going for this community. What's what has been happening to them since then. 18:03.10 Liana Chua Yeah, um, that's that's very much an open question. So The new village was created in the mid 2010 So kind of 202013 2014 inundation happened in 2015 and so at that point. The old villages in the mountain range were inundated. They're they're underwater now mostly and and you know my friends can still sort of stand on the Hills above their new above their old village and kind of look down on the waters and you can see exactly where things were just looks.. It's a very very sort of strange eerie. You know drowned a landscape. We've got these dead tops of trees and and tollcumps of bamboo sticking out of the water. Um, so they've they've been very adaptable. Um, so one of the difficulties is that although they got the legal recognition. 18:41.78 heritagevoices So. 18:55.40 Liana Chua Ah, to their native customary land rights in the area. The government has still not recognized their new village so you know the government's recognized their land rights but it has not agreed to register this village as a village and so it hasn't given them the same sorts of amenities and support like you know. 19:13.70 heritagevoices M. 19:13.92 Liana Chua Medical care and you know funding for gravity feed water systems solar panels that sort of thing that they normally give to rural villages and this means that my friends are having to be very very resourceful and and creative about finding ways of surviving in this new place. Um, so at the moment I've been Yeah umm sort of looking at the different strategies. They've come up with to try and. 19:19.86 heritagevoices Um, um. 19:33.66 Liana Chua You know make things liveable in this new village and these include things like um, they've been trying to set up their own ecotourism scheme where they pick up visitors at the damn entrance and they zip across the water and there's new boat for half an hour and they get there and you know there's beautiful views and ah an ecotourist lodge and everything. Um. 19:53.13 Liana Chua They've been setting up new agricultural small-scale agricultural schemes where they can sell. Um, you know, sort of nice organic village produce to supermarkets to buyers in town. So there's lots of different ways that they've been trying to make things work and they've been trying to create these new alliances as well with ngos and with. Donors and churches. Um, who will then give them. You know the material and financial support to to to do things like create a mini hydro system for their electricity and to build a new village chapel and so on. Um, so it's been really interesting kind of watching these. These different strategic you know and and often very speculative efforts coming together in this one space? Um, but it is tough. Um, you know they're still very much ah in a marginalized and and quite sort of um I guess difficult position. Ah, without official governmental support. So there's still a very big question Mark here as to what's actually going to happen to this village and how sustainable it's going to be in the long term. So yeah, that's what I'm looking at now. 20:57.96 heritagevoices Wow. Do they have a ah website or something for their ecotourism that we could share. 21:04.85 Liana Chua Yeah they've got. They've got a Facebook page actually I mean there's several the several Facebook pages that have come up now because after they won their legal case a number of households from the other villagers who are originally going to be resettled then decided to stay as well and and build their own new villages. So there's there's now a bunch of competing ecotourism schemes. Um, around the dam which is also very interesting but we could absolutely share a link to theco tours. Let me let me have a think about this one because I don't know how I don't know how much publicity they actually want to get because of the the difficult that the tense relationship with the government. 21:40.51 heritagevoices Okay, fair enough. Um, so Chris will. We'll get back to you on whether or not we're gonna keep that part internet. Okay, but in case we do keep it in I'll just say in case we like they decide they want to encourage it say you know. 21:45.61 Liana Chua Um, yeah, he. 21:55.40 Liana Chua Yeah. 21:58.37 heritagevoices So yeah, so anyone that's that's interested in planning a trip to Borneo wants to do a ah ecoourism opportunity sounds like this would be an interesting one and you can check out the link in the the show notes. Ah oh sorry. 22:18.56 heritagevoices And on that note, we are at our second breakpoint but when we come back, we will get to the topic that I know everybody's been waiting for which is the orangutans. Um, so stay tuned for that here in a second.