00:00.10 heritagevoices Welcome to heritage voices episode eighty one I'm Jessica you quinto and I'm your host and today we are talking about working with indigenous communities and orangutan conservation in Borneo. Before we begin I'd like to honor and acknowledge that the lands I'm recording on today are part of the noch or ut people's treaty lands the danta and the ancestral puebloan Homeland today we have Dr Chua on the show. Dr. Leanna Chua is a social anthropologist and Tuu Abdul Rahman University Assistant Professor in malay world studies at the University Of Cambridge she has long-term research interests in Malaysian Borneo where she has explored conversion to christianity ethnic politics and experiences of development and resettlement among badeu communities. She currently works on the social political and aesthetic dimensions of the global nexus of orangutan conservation tracing its operations transformations and effects across not net car I'll get that last sentence I I wouldn't it wouldn't be a bio if I didn't mess up at least 1 line. 01:09.39 Liana Chua Um. 01:09.85 heritagevoices Um, she currently works on the social political and aesthetic dimensions of the global nexus of Orangutan conservation tracing its operations transformations and effects across National and cultural board thing it I Really want that to be borders apparently um, ok. 01:25.86 Liana Chua Um, getting that he putting back. 01:28.17 heritagevoices Ah, she currently works on the social and political sorry I should I was kind of laughing still she currently works on the social political and aesthetic dimensions of the global nexus of Orangutan conservation tracing its operations. Transformations and effects across National and cultural Boundaries. So Welcome to the show liana. Yes I'm so excited to have you on. Um, we never get to talk about Apes. So like you said. 01:49.20 Liana Chua Thank you Jessica nice to be here. 02:00.71 Liana Chua Um, ah how but like kind of 8 though. Just 1 kind. 02:01.60 heritagevoices That's exciting. Yeah, fair enough fair enough? Um, but yeah so I wanted to ask you first. How did how did you get into so social anthropology and and what interested you in this type of work. 02:16.53 Liana Chua Yeah, oh I kind of got into it by accident. So I was I grew up in Singapore where nobody had ever heard of social anthropology and and so for my first degree I I studied history and it was actually through this undergraduate degree in history that. Um, I first became exposed to anthropology and also kind of realized that what really really you know grabbed my attention and really interested me were those those small human stories about you know what people aid what people um, lived like um, the differences but also the similarities between humans and particularly um. The way that these manifested themselves in you know, very sort of stark cross-cultural um or international encounters like you know, moments of trade or religious conversion. So it was kind of I think during my undergraduate in history that I started to develop a bit of ah, an anthropological sensibility. Um, I then went off and worked very briefly in a museum and thought I was going to go into a kind of museum career. Um, but then I discovered ah this mph in Cambridge University called that was something. Something like social anthropology and museum work and I thought oh this sounds interesting kind of combines both my interests. Um, so I wrapped up in Cambridge you know, did this twelve month degree and within about two months suddenly you know had this. 03:39.13 Liana Chua Moment of realization that this was really really what I wanted to do so I then applied for a Ph D and I was very lucky I got a studentship um and then ended up doing a Ph D in Malaysian Volumelio with an indigenous group called a gudeu. 03:55.97 heritagevoices Yeah, okay so I want to I want to back up a little bit to to kind of what you were saying at the very beginning um because Singapore is is really its own really interesting. You know anthropological I don't know what you would call it exactly but um. 04:02.71 Liana Chua Um. 04:08.93 Liana Chua Happen. 04:13.92 heritagevoices Ah, so looking back you know because you're talking about. You know the conversion or ah, all these people coming together and how that shapes people and things like that. Um. Did did it change the way that you think about Singapore after having this experience in in social anthropology. 04:33.11 Liana Chua Oh yeah, yeah, completely. Um, and in fact, I think the seeds were already planted when I was growing up in Singapore because um I think I became very conscious of the fact, you know when I was a teenager that Singapore was this. As you say a very very strange. It's a strange bubble. It's a strange kind of microcosm right? It's this weird little first world. Um, uber modern uber developed and very self-consciously. So you know, um, ah country right in the middle of um, a much larger region in maritime southeast asia 04:55.93 heritagevoices So. 05:04.30 Liana Chua Um, very unusually, it's got ah a chinese majority population. Um, it's got a very specific history of of immigration. Um and integration. So you know I think growing up I was very aware. Um that we were kind of unusual in the region. Um, but I also but I was also very aware that. Um, there was this very strong narrative. Um in Singapore that we always heard day and day out in school um about us I guess you could call it Singapore and exceptionalism right? We we were so we were different we were we were special. We were somehow um, better than the rest of the countries around us because we're more modern more progressive. You know, whatever. Um, I think that's sort of that really I sort of absorbed that a lot when I was at school but I also found it slightly disturbing and I couldn't quite put my finger on why I found that you know uncomfortable. Um, and so I I think that was partly why I became interested in in kind of. Going back to my own region. You know back to Southeast Asia to do my ph d fieldwork because I think I saw this as an opportunity for me to um to state that curiosity and to and to actually have a chance to to look more carefully at some of these places that you know we just kind of. 06:16.30 Liana Chua Ah, dismissed as as these slightly backward neighbors that we we were somehow better than and to actually try to look behind those sorts of stereotypes and these strange images that I'd grown up with in Singapore and to try and understand what exactly was going on behind those stereotypes. So I guess in a way. Um. 06:21.48 heritagevoices Only. 06:34.75 Liana Chua Ah, doing this ph d in anthropology was also partly an attempt to to kind of look look back at my Singapore upbringing in a slightly different way and and maybe try to disrupt some of the assumptions that I'd grown up with. Um, you know that very much informed the the sort of education system in the way singaporeans thought and in some ways still think about themselves. 06:59.16 heritagevoices Um, interesting. Sorry I'm taking notes because that was really interesting. Um, yeah, so okay, so that um, that led you to look at at wanting to work in the region. But what. Specifically drew you to Malaysian Borneo and what specifically drew you to this community that you were working with. 07:16.92 Liana Chua Um, believe. 07:21.72 Liana Chua Yes, so um so I think when I when I decided that I was going to try and you know go back to Southeast Asia trying to understand a little bit more about my own backyard. Um I then went and did a load of reading in the libraries. Um, and and while I was doing this reading I came across this really interesting article by an anthropologist. Ah, called Robert Winsler I think he was based in in Nevada I think and he wrote this really interesting piece about how these rural bidoyu communities but also Bidoyu communities in town um, were starting to recast their old ritual architecture and particularly a building That's you know. Sometimes been called the head house. So it's a kind of ritual house that has historically been used for rituals but also been used to store the heads of of enemies that they'd taken previously. Um, as as these as as these new sort of cultural artifacts right? So he was kind of looking at this transformation. Of a ritual building with various ritual users into um, a cultural space. so so so I read this article one I was absolutely intrigued because what I'd been finding in my readings was that a lot of the existing anthropological research on borneo on southeast asia so this was kind of in the early two thousand s yeah. Um, was was very It was very sort of it was very culturally centered. It was about trying to understand you know, traditional cultures traditional ways of life. You know old rituals old religions but not very good at dealing with transformations and changes which I was fairly sure was happening in this region. So. 08:52.21 Liana Chua Actually reading an article that looked explicitly at that process of change and the way you were kind of rethinking identities and ritual and so on got me really interested in trying to understand various kinds of traditions. Ah sorry various kinds of transitions and how people in places like Borna were living through those transitions. And and the way that they were exercising their own agency in these moments. So I decided that I would try to find out a little bit more about bidayu society and so at this point this was a bit of a leap and into the dark right? So um I I got in touch with. Various people. Um in Singapore who were in touch with various people in Malaysian Borneo um ah these were all through regional Catholic Networks which was very interesting. Um, who then put me in touch with a very well-respected and well-known Bidu um catholic leader. 09:47.62 Liana Chua And so he hosted me ah for a few weeks. He took me. He took me driving around various bidayu regions in his car and we we basically visited a whole bunch of villages. Um including a number of places that winsler had written about in his article. And I was trying to basically you know find a village that was undergoing those sorts of very self-conscious, um, cultural transformations that winslowugh was writing about and so um, we eventually came to a place called Kamunng Bunookk um kumpong means village and bonook was the name of the village. Um, and here we found that there was a little um. A little mini museum as it called of itself that had been set up by the quite elderly son of the village's last ritual chief. Um, so just to give you a little bit of context most bidoys were followers of and of an animus ritual complex known as gawai. Um, up to about the 1960 s 1980 s and then from about the 1980 s this process of very rapid and large-scale Christianization began. So this guy who owned the mini museum had converted to catholicism a while back but he still kept his family heirlooms like you know jars and gongs and um ritual items. Um, as a repository of a bidda u culture so he was kind of transforming these old ritual items into forms of culture. You know in the way that winsler had described um and what I didn't realize at the time was that this was also you know also a means of trying to reassert his his family's authority and saying you know? yeah you know. 11:08.98 heritagevoices Um. 11:19.80 Liana Chua Um, we used to be really really potent and really influential and powerful in the village and we kind of still are and here's the proof here are our heirlooms and you know, um, all our old ritual collections I didn't know that at the time but that was also the kind of one of the motivations I think for him setting up that many museum. So he had a little chat. Um I was just in the learning malay which is the lingo frank at the time and he basically said yeah you know if you want to come back and learn about bidayu culture from me if you want to come and work with me on the mini museums collection. You'd be very welcome to you know, come and live in the village we'll adopt you as as our granddaughter. Um, and and you know just just feel free. so um so I did so I kind of hung on to those catholic connections and um, several months later was introduced to another well-respected catholic lady catholic leader. Um. Who was from the same village was from kamungunook and and she ended up becoming my adoptive mother and I ended up living with her and her family for a total of 15 months during my ph d and spent a lot of time working at the mini museum so it was I didn't know it at the time but this. Combination of christianity which was very very um, influential and and central to people's lives and this interest in old ritual objects ended up becoming the focal point of. 12:45.79 Liana Chua Ah, my Ph D research and eventually the book that I wrote about it. 12:48.31 heritagevoices Interesting Sorry all of a sudden not gonna take a sip as T again. 13:06.66 heritagevoices Okay, yeah, so that's that's kind of interesting too because in a way you're almost tying back to that original interest in social anthropology and museums. Um, there's kind of ah, an interesting tieback there um can you talk a little bit. 13:19.40 Liana Chua Um, yeah, yeah. 13:24.70 heritagevoices Oh sorry, were you gonna say something or do you want me to keep going. Okay, um, so so could you talk a little bit about um maybe what these collections meant to the community. Um. 13:27.77 Liana Chua And then I carry on yet. 13:42.57 heritagevoices And and basically what you found during your time there. What you learned? yeah. 13:47.50 Liana Chua Yeah, um, so my experience with a mini museum was revelatory in all sorts of ways but not necessarily in the ways that I expected. Um So one of the first things that happened. Um after I arrived so I spent about. You know a month and a half I think working with this elderly guy and his wife who taught me a lot about these ritual objects in the museum and then he suddenly died which was really really Unfortunate. He'd been Ill for a while and then he said you know one day he just he just passed really quickly and and everybody was bit. 14:13.88 heritagevoices Oh. 14:19.72 heritagevoices Wow. 14:22.63 Liana Chua He's a bit shocked and taken aback and his wife was you know in in total shock and really upset. Um, and so that threw open all sorts of questions about you know what would happen to the mini museum. You know what was going to happen to um, you know this this old ritual knowledge that I've been partially documenting and you know I wasn't quite there yet. Um, and so. 14:28.70 heritagevoices Um. 14:42.17 Liana Chua That kind of sent my research in all sorts of new directions. Um, and and I remember distinctly this moment when I wandered down. Um you know into into the mini museum during his wake so you know with catholic wakes you have about seven seven nights of of prayers. Um in the deceased household. And and what you get is you get the whole village. Ideally, you know coming to the deceased household bringing gifts bringing food bringing money to try and give the bereaved family a little bit of support. You know so that they don't they don't feel ill they don't feel sad. They don't feel lonely. So it's it's it's an incredible moment when. You really kind of get this this this idea of you know communitas in action and so I remember wandering down to the mini museum and it had been turned into a sort of gambling den because people often kind of you know, do bit of gambling you know place on cards they drink beer. They were kind of eating peanuts and chucking the shells in the floor. Very very normal stuff for ah for awake. Um, and I had a chat with a group of you know, kind of middle aged men who were sitting there and they were asking me um about the research the research that I was doing and I said yeah I'm here to study bide you culture I want to understand all about your culture. And 1 of the guys turned to me and he said oh yeah, well you know, ah you know all this stuff is our culture so he kind of gestured around the room. Ah you know towards all the objects that were on display all the stuff that this guy had put together in the museum. This stuff is our culture. it's it's the old ways. But you know if you come. 16:11.81 Liana Chua Here in about you know, 101520 years time it's not going to be here anymore. You're just going to find us sitting here eating eating peanuts and drinking beer and that's basically it um and I think at that point I suddenly realized that actually people were not as interested in. 16:18.63 heritagevoices And. 16:29.22 Liana Chua Culture in this concept of culture as I as I thought they had been um I suddenly realized that that the sorts of processes of transformation of of you know, ritual things into culture that winsler had been describing and that this guy had been doing through the mini museum. Um. Was not being shared across the village people people were not that interested in in creating a sense of be you culture in the same way. Um, this was very much the project of 1 particular guy. So although I learned a lot from him you know I suddenly realized that I didn't fully and he was a very he was a very specific. Section of that village and to really really understand what was going on in the village I had to start looking elsewhere I had to try and understand you know what was actually going on in people's everyday lives which is you know that's one of the great things about anthropology right? You've you've got that sort of inductive impulse. You realize that the questions that you started out with were not the same. And then you find other questions that really matter to people and so I had a bit of a panic at that point I was like oh my god um, you know what do I do I'm they're not interested in culture. What am I going to talk about um and at that point I then realized you know I was sitting there. It was awake. They were saying the rosary and lots of prayers upstairs and I said. Realize and actually what seemed to matter in these situations was christianity it was sort of christianity that was structuring people's lives christianity that absolutely infused the way they understood what was going on around them. Um, and as I later discovered ah christianity that were shaping the way they relate to to the old ritual objects and the old ritual. 17:57.22 Liana Chua Practitioners and and the spirits and what they were doing. Um, so again, you know I sort of ended up doing this strange loop where I started with culture and museums veered away from it because I realized that people weren't talking about culture in the same way. But then sort of came back to this question and but via a rather um, circuitous route through the study of christianity and and what I was realizing was that the experience of converting to christianity was what was um, encouraging people to differentiate between the old ways you know ritual. Um, as performed properly by the old practitioners. The spirits that were associated with these rituals and culture as it could be manifested in objects in certain items of dress in certain songs certain dances that could be safely incorporated into their everyday christian life. So culture is something that was based on the old ways. But that was somehow compatible with bedayu christianity. Um, and and I don't think I would have quite set off on that path if I hadn't had that moment sitting in the mini museum with those guys who just said and we're not that interested in culture really? Um, so yeah, that's um, that's what happened in a nutshell. 19:02.29 heritagevoices He. 19:08.84 heritagevoices Yeah, um, yeah, that's an interesting interesting journey like going back and forth in the different directions I feel like that's how it always goes with with anthropology. Um, but we are already at our our first breakpoint which is crazy but we will be. 19:17.84 Liana Chua Um, and. 19:24.35 Liana Chua Um. 19:26.32 heritagevoices Back here in a minute.