00:01.00 Richie What what is? what. 00:01.69 archpodnet All right? We are back from our break and okay, um, first question I want to ask you so thinking about tribal relations I feel like when I when I talk to people that are in. Um. 00:16.89 Richie Are. 00:18.47 archpodnet Tribal relations type conditions. 1 of the things that seems to come up. Is you know like basically like a lot of people that are in those roles get into those roles because they want to um you know support the communities that they're working with but in in this case, the tribes. Um, that they're they're working with and it's kind of tricky. Um, once they're in that role because they they kind of realize that their job is not really I mean to some extent it is to represent the tribes to the agency but in in larger part. Their job is is to. Represent the agency to the tribe. Um is that a challenge that you faced. Um or I don't know that played out differently in your current role. 01:14.25 Richie Um, for sure that's ah I have some colleagues who are non-native and that their articulations of being a tribal relations specialist are. Guess I would say vastly different than mine. One of them felt comfortable enough in front of me to say I know you're not going to jump all over me for this but I feel that because of Deb Holland that there's reverse racism towards us non-native tribal relations people and I i. And just said oh okay I thought it was funny just in terms of the whole argument when people say reverse racism and what does that entail and the structure of reality and so on and so forth. But ah, that colleague is is an interesting fella and just. 01:53.42 archpodnet Yeah. 02:05.37 Richie Sometimes he'd probably be better in a laboratory than dealing with people and um, yeah, it's just unique situations that I think people encounter for sure. Um I guess. 02:22.70 Richie When I worked at the department of interior back in those days. One of my relatives who was deciding on whatever particular reason to try to give me crap for being a B I in um. 02:39.26 Richie Tried to say that I'm a sellout by working for the feds and I think to that I said well cool, hit up your aim daddy and leave me alone then and and she took back what she said pretty fast because I help subsidize things for but um. 02:50.94 archpodnet Um. 02:58.43 Richie Having a job is something that again. What does that mean in modern society the distinction between you work for corporate America or you're a civil servant you work for a nonprofit versus you work for a prophet. There are different discourses that you know circulate and I think. Um, at the position I'm in I did get asked by some of the folks at work. Do I receive any flak for working for the forest unit because oftentimes when they're in their meetings and it's obviously all non-native people. 03:29.46 archpodnet Um. 03:35.73 Richie On one side of the table so to speak and then the native folks soften the tippos or the tribal leaders. They they receive the full. Um I guess binary treatment of the you are the other and you are the other. 03:54.46 archpodnet So. 03:54.71 Richie Depending on which side you're sitting on So The idea of me taking the position was to bridge that and from what I gathered people who work on different tribal advocacy forms were saying you know we're so happy you're in this. But. That doesn't mean there aren't people who are gone ah just another Indian scout working for the feds. That's that's probably always ongoing depending on how you rub people and some people rub people wrong that sounds rough He's the Rub metaphor. But ah. 04:28.67 Richie Long and the short of some of that is there are other arguments in the communities of Grassroots Indians aren't ira government indians so when someone says they work for the tribe. The money comes from bi. Anyways, it's appropriated from congress so you're already a sellout when you work for. Ah. The ira governments. So there's in all of the tribes that have the I don't know if I would say privilege but still have connectivity to preco colonial governments in a traditional like the Houdin Nasauni houdin nasauni versus the. Formal tribal recognition of St Reg's Mohawk or oneida nation. There's still a traditional holding a shone council out here. There's still a treaty council. Um, who are the grassroots people and if you work for the tribe you're already considered to sell out because you're really a fed. Because all that money is federal dollars anyways. So there's there's numerous I guess moments where people can undermine someone for whatever their reason might be you know like activists versus somebody versus tangible. Um. 05:42.21 Richie Issues You're dealing with but personally I haven't dealt with any of those I think due to living still in in my community here and doing the best I can to get along with everybody. Um I don't I don't. These to my face haven't encountered anybody given me crap. But again I'm so new that I'm going to use that for the next couple of decades. 06:03.90 archpodnet The whole. 06:09.12 archpodnet So If if somebody was you know coming out of of college or whatever and they were thinking that they wanted to go into this kind of position. What advice would you. Give them On. You know how to how to do the best they can in a in tribal relations kind of role. 06:38.31 Richie Um I think um, here's a like a circuit cut. What's words sort circuitous way to approach the topic I spoke to a colleague. He's sort of well-known named Nick Esty's and we were discussing you know and I I guess it's a private conversation. But what I'm revealing isn't. Top secret or private discourse in any way but he said he's working in an indian studies department and this is the first time he's experienced the job and his identity are enmeshed together whereas before he was in an american studies department and it just so happened that he was native. The job being about what you are essentially identified as creates a blurring or a hazing of the lines of your professional identity. Are you professional indian are you a professional person who happens to be indian and. 07:33.59 archpodnet More. 07:36.95 Richie Indian Obviously native of whatever I don't I'm not yeah the native American thing is a interesting one but um, the long and the short of some of that is if being the job versus. 07:55.98 Richie Doing a job and then is it a career or a job and you know is working as ah, a till person for seven eleven a career choice or is it a job is you know what you do in who you are something that do. Somewhat combined together. That's a whole fascinating anthropological discussion if you live in a community where there aren't any jobs. It's who's your family so your identity predates your profession and your career. But if you're a native kid or a non-native kid. 08:24.57 archpodnet Um. 08:34.20 Richie Ultimately I would think that it comes down to your identity as a human being and where you're at in your identity meaning. Are you fine with being transparent to the identity you're in or are you trying to pose as something that you're. 08:44.90 archpodnet And. 08:52.14 Richie Kind of overcompensating for something and if you're sort of wishy-washy or you're trying to be something you might get eaten up in positions that are requiring something stable. So if you're. Like my 1 friend there. He's not trying to be native. He's interesting because he perhaps is trying to be more chicano which is more of a stretch and he battles with other people in his category as you're not chicano enough. You're a white guy and I find that fascinating and i. 09:23.51 archpodnet Ah, how the. 09:27.89 Richie Don't really point that out to him but he's in a different category altogether. So if you're working with a different tribe that's something to consider as well. Um, you know I did spend grad school down with the southwestern tribes and I could. Generically just be ethnic and not worry and people didn't know if I was Navajo or one of those tribes or whatever because there was a different different reality down there and yet observing things and watching things and if someone's coming out of college. Ah. 10:06.43 Richie It's helpful to have quote unquote the gift of Gab I think but at the same time. It's helpful to be respectful and listen and you know you operate accordingly and if you're assured as to who you are and you're not not. You know. 10:07.81 archpodnet No well. 10:25.28 Richie Quite sure of what you do and why you do it to the fullest. No one I don't think really is fully enmeshed in an academic discourse on who they are fully but but yeah in certain positions in life where people want things and communication done. If someone is trying to play both sides but trying to play one. It becomes apparent and I've seen that in all the meetings I'm in there are some who you know do you operate in a tribal community at what level. Are your family still living in that community. You'd be like an irish catholic person from South Boston saying I'm irish and then my grandpa was in the ira and he blew up that post office in that movie michael collins blah blah blah and we smuggled guns with Whitey Bulger 11:17.30 archpodnet Oh. 11:19.51 Richie And so on and so forth and then you meet someone in Iowa who says I'm irish and then you say well when did your family come over. Do you keep contact in what village what? community the germans have bought out most of the land. You know there's all sorts of things of if you're claiming heritage that's a different identity construct. 11:26.77 archpodnet No. 11:39.18 Richie Then you're still tethered to that space in the politics of the everyday drama and so on a continuum scale. Ah someone coming and and being like that silly movie and I only say silly because there's hollywood silly. But. That thunderheart with Val Kilmer back in the day and there's this white-looking fellowa saying he's indian and he comes back and no one knows who he is but the elders know who his lineage is and what is that all about he has a vision and he's never even been to the reservation before. Meanwhile someone who's been there their whole life didn't have a vision so somehow there's this spiritual value to Val Kilmer Thathame Green's character didn't have and obviously I'm jumping into a cinema reference. So if no one's seen that movie. What I'm saying doesn't make too much sense. But ah. But ultimately when people come out of college was it a tribal college because then people know you and you didn't leave the tribal community if you went to a mainstream or state school does your community know you and then what if you weren't raised there like jumping to the southwest context what if you grew up in Flagstaff. 12:52.31 archpodnet What a. 12:53.45 Richie Or Phoenix you know does that make you less of a native from where or just own your identity from where you are and you could be related to people. But do you live there now and so that overstepping in speaking for the collective. Because you're something is a dangerous spot that I've watched people do and I don't think I I don't overstep at this point in life I may have when I was younger who knows but but I do think those are things that I've watched when I watch discourse in a room. 13:16.87 archpodnet Um. 13:29.43 Richie Between natives and non-natives and someone tries to speak for native people and it's like all 574 tribes or all the all the lakota bands or all the canadian who are you your whole tribe listens to you I mean that that kind of ah. 13:46.22 archpodnet Um, and the. 13:49.18 Richie Mistake I think happens a lot in terms of being ah intermediary in different situations even watching Attorneys represent clients. So so yeah I don't know if that somewhat speaks to it a little bit but but I do think. 13:55.14 archpodnet A. 14:08.61 Richie You know their great experience can be gathered pretty fast on the ground whether you want it or not, you're going to dive into the deep end if you're a travel relations person. 14:21.44 archpodnet Um, yeah, yeah, are there any? um I don't know is there anything that you're working on right now that you're like I'm really excited about this. 14:34.67 Richie I am I guess in the larger sense and obviously more acute ways with particular spaces and projects but in a general sense. A lot of the projects I'm trying to facilitate involve getting the tribes on board. Ah, with the the existing programs and and what it means to have a forest space of land and the upkeep and the the kind of I don't know how to feel and when I say I don't know how to feel. I mean the the usage of the term preservation and conservation preservation makes me think of formaldehyde and you're preserving something like Ishi's brain in ah in a paperweight or something but the idea of continuous. Um. 15:19.76 archpodnet Um. 15:31.44 Richie Stewardship is the word that they're using. But basically whether it's the rainforest or any of the forests. It's not like it's a untouched thing that nobody ever came about everything has often been. You know, interfaced and. Intermingled with human beings and if human beings can learn to try to balance their engagement and try to keep things in the ecological niche going as opposed to screwing it up. Um, that's really important. And so when people say natives in the environment and all of that at just purely a level of generalized statement. It's also how do you know that there was more trees in the black hills now than there ever were when Custer was first going through. There's some really cool pictures. And the different types of trees. It's almost like a tree farm. It reminds me of a chia pit honestly, but ah in order to have that reality in that space. It requires upkeep and. There's the terms I've been learning about forest treatments and so what happens every summer with burns and natural disasters and to try to prevent huge ones versus controlled burns and how traditional understandings of native tribes from the ah. 17:02.75 Richie You know from the pacific northwest all the way through to the East Coast tribes understood you have to burn things to recycle at times and doesn't mean destroy it means to again I guess steward steward the land steward the land is different than. Complete total control and kind of I don't know people like to colonize. But I think of some kind of song lyric where it says they pave paradise to put up a parking lot and in that regard if you're wanting you know to have lands that are still. 17:30.57 archpodnet Say. 17:40.82 Richie Existing in a natural state for animals that you don't want dead and things to keep going from plants to Animals. You got to think about sustainability and as opposed to concrete and Urbanization. So Those are those are really interesting concepts. But. Projects I'm working on are about trying to give Tribes a seat at the table to access in form. Um, you know if they don't want to do something. They have the the ability if they have a seat at the table to say hey we don't agree with this I mean there's all sorts of mechanisms within. System from Nipa to just environmental impact statements to treaty rights to all sorts of ways that tribes can get more involved at this Juncture. So. There's plenty of projects that can lead to employment and so. 18:28.58 archpodnet The. 18:36.80 Richie For me if I can facilitate some projects that get some work crews to be able to work in the summer um and maybe perhaps throughout the year that's bringing income to families who again with ah 80 to 90% unemployment for sure, could use some help so those are some of the things. But also we are working on a cultural interpretive center and if the tribes start to. You know in a phased-in project start to get a sustainable way to then reclaim the narrative of the black hills as to what what do native people think why are these sacred what's going on and then how was this you know relationship not right in. 19:12.26 archpodnet No. 19:25.41 Richie Why did the supreme court acknowledge that and where are we at now and how are we moving forward and again you have to be honest with history as opposed to cover it up so there's there's those kind of larger issues that are in the works right now and. For sure under the Biden administration those are goals of co-steewardship I think what's the 1 bears ears or something in the southwest is exemplified as yeah, yeah, so so you're we're well aware of the kind of I think it had a. 19:50.39 archpodnet Yeah, right next to me. So. 20:03.70 Richie Tumultuous time under Trump and it's back to a positive role again and so so yeah, it's it's an ah opportune time to try to really get the tribes at the table so to speak. But you have 2 wo-year rollovers in leadership and. 20:03.56 archpodnet A. 20:20.74 Richie Consistency and infrastructure challenges. So um, yeah, those are all things that I guess it's ethically a fun feeling if I was to put it that way knowing that if I can try to. Um, help reinforce and support tribal sovereignty and the rights of tribes to partake in the lands that were obviously theirs and arguably still are according to the supreme court. How do you do that in a way are the best way possible. And move forward with all of America too. so so yeah those are those are I guess are the things I'm working on and that's a vague way to say it. But if I was to say on different meetings with nonprofits and different stakeholders to try to. Get wood for the community. So when we experience the blizzards that just happened and people died. We don't have that happen because there'll be a backup wood supply which means establishing a relationship like a sustainable one where people have at least a couple months of wood reserves for people who rely on wood to heat themselves and cook so those are some of the tangible projects that are on my plate right now. 21:43.30 archpodnet Yeah, yeah, it's important stuff so we're we're right at the end of our time and I have so many more questions especially about the early stuff which we didn't really get to dive into um but. I guess just on a ah last note to wrap up on. Um, if you had like 1 soapbox thing like 1 thing that if you could scream it from the rooftops and you know have everybody hear you? What would it be. 22:02.26 Richie Ah. 22:07.53 Richie Are. 22:19.90 Richie But sadly and I'm just gonna say it because I took a soup of my diet Pepsi here and I was thinking of an Eddie Murphy movie and the barbershop scene don't bet on the white guy when it's a boxing match. But when you're saying. 22:24.10 archpodnet When. 22:30.37 archpodnet Um, awful. 22:35.87 Richie If you could say something and scream off the roof. It would be don't trust a white man. No ah, it's It's an interesting I mean thing. What would my screaming off the roof I'd be thinking I Wonder how long till someone shoots me if I was screaming on my roof or if people would ignore me in town. So. 22:51.53 archpodnet Um. 22:55.75 Richie Had a few few rapid thoughts go through my head when you were saying that statement. Um I would think ah you know that the spaces of what someone can do with Anthropology degrees are endless. Um. 22:56.18 archpodnet Um I Love it. 23:15.12 Richie Whether someone goes more specific into archeology or linguistics or whatever that specialization might be. You'll find more narrow job paths. But um, ultimately learning going to college and then you know beginning. Quote Unquote a career by doing different Jobs. You can start to find something that's more oops computer made a ding noise but you can kind of come about something I know my wife teaches a careers class at the local school. And that whole debate of what's a job and what's a career and you know when they say do what you love or love what you do or all those different kinds of idioms. It seems to me that in the heritage field and in the anthropological World. Um. 23:55.95 archpodnet Um. 24:10.68 Richie There are opportunities whether in the private sector or the federal government or towns or whatever space you're going to end up in that there's plenty of work to do to try to connect people and having those connections. It's a positive thing. Um, if people are driven by financial interests and income. Maybe not. But but as far as ethically feeling decent about the work. You. Do you know for sure Chase and pursue the passions towards something that often people say. That's not an area to major in what are you gonna get for your jobs and life with that. There's plenty plenty of things to do with it. So Yeah I don't know if I'd scream it but I just wish a lot of younger people understood things like that. 24:52.18 archpodnet Oh. 25:01.18 archpodnet Um, yeah. 25:07.54 Richie Become a lawyer or doctor so you can pull in big bucks. So I don't know I don't know how much that's true ethically cleansed. Oh Geez I'm not even sure. 25:11.30 archpodnet Um, unless you want to feel what how did you read that you said like ethically Ah, what was it? ah. 25:25.78 archpodnet I don't I don't know that I feel ethically I think ethically all right? Um, oh good. Ah well on that note. 25:26.11 Richie Feel Ethically okay is about as good as I can get I may yeah ethically. Okay, that's about as good as it's gonna be. 25:45.10 archpodnet I think I think we are done here today but um, thank you so much for coming on again I really really appreciate you taking the time twice now and yeah someday we'll have to have you back on and talk more about all of the earlier stuff and what you're doing at that point and. 26:03.70 Richie Um. 26:04.62 archpodnet Yeah, be great. So yeah, long story short. Thank you again for coming on. 26:09.26 Richie Sounds good. 26:19.40 Richie Um, you're welcome.