00:00.00 archpodnet Welcome to heritage voices episode 75 I'm Jessica yu quinto and I'm your host and today we are talking about lakota anthropology before we begin I'd like to honor and acknowledge that the lands I'm recording on today are part of the nooch or ute people's treaty lands. The danta and the ancestral puebloan homeland and today we have Dr Richard Myers on the show. Richie is the tribal relations specialist at the black hills national forest and the former director of graduate studies and associate professor at ogualla lakota college he holds. Sorry editors at Oglala Lakota College he holds a ph d degree in anthropology from Arizona State University at Southern Dakota state university he served as director of tribal outreach to the president. 00:42.59 Richie Um. 00:53.87 archpodnet Myers has served as a writer for the assistant secretary of indian affairs oops yeah I guess something wonky. 00:54.69 Richie Or he it. 01:03.20 Richie I was gonna say South Dakota while you said Southern Dakota and there's like an Eastern Dakota state and southern and but ah yeah, it just a south I think it's just South Dakota state 01:09.74 archpodnet I would do that but okay South Dakota state okay I don't know where I got that from in my brain. Um one second. Okay. 01:19.48 Richie Yeah. 01:23.69 archpodnet I'll just start I'll restart at the ph d part. Okay, he holds a ph d degree in anthropology from Arizona State University at South Dakota state university he served as director of tribal outreach to the president. Myers has also served as a writer for the assistant secretary of indian affairs under both the Bush and Obama administrations and was a fellow in the anthropology department at the Smithsonian he's the president-elect of the association of indigenous anthropologists. And he was also on recent episode episode 73 of heritage voices exploring the ethics in experimental archeology and he was so great and we didn't get enough time with him during that episode. So we I am really excited to have you back on and and learn more about. All of the the cultural anthropology work that you've done or your background because obviously that's my neck of the woods and I don't get to talk about it enough. So very excited. Welcome back to the show. Richie. 02:31.57 Richie Thank you. 02:38.39 archpodnet All right? Okay, so let's dive in um and can you tell us a little bit about what got you into this type of work. 02:41.38 Richie Um, and. 02:54.53 Richie Um, geez ah, it's kind of um I guess coincides with my my life in general. Um, my dad's family are I guess from Ireland who. 03:01.19 archpodnet Here. 03:09.65 Richie Came to Chicago and in strict kind of rules. His dad's side with the name. Myers are german names that went to Ireland at some point and the maternal side are more I guess irish known names and towards county mayo and County Cork are where his relatives hail from but his grandparents were butchers in Hyde Park in Chicago and whatnot and um, long story short he ah and his. Siblings all moved after World War ii to the East Coast near Boston Massachusetts and they had all I guess achieved higher education by way of sports and sports scholarships and his led him into football and. After finishing his football eligibility. He took off to the rosebud reservation and in the seventy s there that was an interesting time for the american indian movement and other such things going on nationally my mom hails from ah. The high soul community on the Pine Ridge reservation here where I'm speaking to you from on the town of wombly. Um, the long and the short of it is my mom and dad I guess got got together and I was there. 04:40.54 Richie Offspring I I guess I got a lot of Anth Gobblely Goook in my mouth if I start babbling but um, out of that that kind of union as I progressed in life in school and so on and so forth I came into anthropology with ah. 04:43.67 archpodnet Oh. 04:59.74 Richie Hungry thirst for finding more and more words within the discipline that explained things that I had grown up watching and seeing between my mom's lakutta first language speaking family and my dad's I guess could say irish Catholic New England type upbringing. Ah, so um, I ended up spending significant time in all different types of cultural pockets from immigrants to the reservation to my father's second marriage to a. Indigenous woman from the mountains of Nihuaan Mexico and my mom is back to the Denver region. So I have I have in total he could say 7 sisters that popped up in that reality from. 05:37.58 archpodnet And. 05:53.87 Richie Cousins being adopted to half -sisters and the technicalities of all that but it's just easier to say I had 7 sisters with my oldest sister being highly influential on me and yeah I got to attend a fancy school in new england called Amherst College which at the time was the Lord Jeffs and the whole attribution of Lord Jeffrey Amherst to being the first kind of smallpox blanket guy to you know inflict biological warfare on native people. So um. 06:30.97 Richie Yeah, from from all of those different experiences I went to grad school in Arizona and Vermont at the same time for different programs and everything just kind of made sense to pursue anthropology for the. Reasons of culture and language and um, yeah I ended up focusing on native identity and its articulations in english when people are trying to you know. Articulate what it means to be an american indian at a pan-indian level versus a tribal level urban versus reservation all different distinctions I examined that in a discourse of anthropology as it relates to American Indians and notion that anthropology is built off of the back of American Indians in this hemisphere as opposed to social anthropology in Britain but both coming from that kind of philosophical understanding of the other and self and other as a. Interesting beginnings to a discipline and what does that mean for pre-industrialized societies and cultures and communities that are now you know completely encapsulated by modern global capitalism. So. 07:56.15 Richie So yeah, anthropology just made sense. 07:59.00 archpodnet I I'm still stuck on the fact that you got 2 grudge with degrees at the same time one was hard enough. 08:06.10 Richie Oh yeah, the the one was in english at Middlebury College and the other was in anthropology at arizona state university and the idea of wedding the 2 together in terms of sociolinguistics. And so on and so forth which later led to becoming a ghostwriter in other things where I used to tease and say I'm a textual ventriloquist. But um, yeah, there's there's different different things the the program at Middleberry was allowing me to do. 08:37.86 archpodnet Um. 08:45.00 Richie Degrees in the summer so I do the two semesters of the fall and spring and then attend the other program in the summer and chipped away on both at the same time dug up a good good amount of debt that's for sure. 08:53.80 archpodnet Um, Okay so I can only imagine um yeah, so after Grad School. What? Um, you know what did? What did you want to do with all of that I guess. 09:19.62 Richie Um, um I believe I I was thinking on a career in academe but not quite sure my my life kind of bouncing between different types of institutions. Um. 09:36.20 Richie There was that idea of okay if I teach at an Elite Liberal Arts College I can revel in all sorts of fancy cutting edge theory and ideas. But the tokenism of being the only native person in programs are on faculty. Was a bit I guess difficult to handle at that age and actually I think at any age. But um I I I entered into the federal government. Um. 10:04.34 archpodnet Um. 10:12.35 Richie At the time that I was somewhat searching for academic positions and just somewhat exhausted from from finishing and completing the dissertation and where my dissertation was examining a lot of native ph ds and what that means to claim that identity and academe. I thought geez I had a lot of indicting interviews with people who weren't native and who had postured as such and kind of a lot of notions of what is today called ethnic fraud and pretend indianism I didn't want to be noted as the guy to police. 10:38.87 archpodnet And. 10:45.16 archpodnet Right. 10:50.94 archpodnet Um, right are. 10:50.95 Richie Identity I thought it was fascinating the way that people frame out things and try to authenticate and that ultimately human beings aggregate around language Communities. So If you're all into saving the whales or into hiking and eating you know gluten free or whatever. The. Kind of um identifiers are for coming together and you know trying to be an identity not the mainstream but how marginalized and what does that mean and. 11:11.55 archpodnet Um. 11:26.99 Richie Almost a competition for who's the most minoritized or marginalized and how does that work and when that gets supplied to indian country. Um, you know there's there's what people sometimes call ground 0 and when they spout out statistics about indigenous. 11:30.46 archpodnet Me. 11:45.69 Richie Native North America are native people in North America above the border region where there's federal recognition. The idea that the Pine Ridge indian reservation or perhaps the san carlos indian reservation share some of the most dismal statistics with poverty. Um. 12:05.49 Richie You'll find people in Indian country at large often will say say things like you know the average lifespan of a native man on the pine reservation is in his fifty s and you know according to that I I don't have much longer to live but hopefully I paid attention to some things and. 12:21.43 archpodnet Um, well no. 12:25.90 Richie Maybe I'll make it longer but ah, but yeah, there's there's a lot of interesting things when people want to you know, especially during November as native american heritage month and that month in particular becomes an interesting time like. 12:36.70 archpodnet Are. 12:41.72 Richie I believe February what is it? We're in black history month and whether you get appropriated by sprite commercials or Target or whoever yeah, that is something that I guess it's not as prevalent in indian country to the point that it has hit other. 12:42.62 archpodnet Like instrumentia. 12:56.67 archpodnet Me. 12:59.32 Richie Minoritized things and that's that distinction between native people versus minorities. But there's for sure just a lot of things to to I guess dive into when you're dealing with quote unquote indian country proper and then urban indian identity and. What does it all mean at the end of the day and yeah, when I when I went from ah the Smithsonian one day for lunch I ended up not knowing that I was in an interview for a government position at the department of interior as a writer. And an editor and so that came upon my lap and I I yeah I dove into that spot and figured I owed so much for school that I might as well just consider myself property of the federaled government and um, yeah I was going to stay there for a few years and. Go back to academic work and ultimately I did that. But um, it was something where the time period started to scare me what was 3 years turned into 5 and then I wasn't sure if I would be stuck in Dc for my life and. That was not the place I'd ever envisioned on being and what did they say Dc is the hollywood for ugly people and so um, yeah I wasn't hollywood material and I never had aspirations of being there but I um. 14:17.42 archpodnet Are. 14:31.97 Richie Always wanted to come back and I promised my grandparents out here and so forth that I would come back to ombly and do what I could with whatever education I got and so um, eventually I I had an opportunity to leave. The government and go to the east side of South Dakota to South Dakota state university to build an american indian studies program and to work as the I guess the the liaison to the president at the time they were trying to do some things because. Believe they got dinged real bad on the diversity and other components that showed how racist the school was when I got there. There was a bunch of farmer kids driving around with their rifles because everybody in South Dakota has probably a gun in their car. It's safe to say and not in. 15:15.42 archpodnet Um, then. 15:26.50 Richie Not necessarily an automatic site assault rifle. But when you live in rural reality. Ah, it's just normal but to point those guns at the kids from the city or minority kids walk in our Indian kids those things definitely don't do good for an environment like Sdsu so. 15:39.91 archpodnet Um, moving we. 15:44.50 archpodnet Um, well. 15:45.97 Richie They really revamped and have made a one hundred and eighty degree turn. Um you know and in terms of image I don't know necessarily as far as gathering and gaining a whole bunch of native students to go there both usd and sdsu remind me of Asu and. Uva down in Arizona. There's those rivalries and so forth. But when you're a native person I don't know that those are necessarily too much on your radar because the biggest achievement is getting through high school and yeah, those things. 16:10.17 archpodnet Um, and will leave. 16:20.41 archpodnet Um, right. 16:23.23 Richie Interesting I get the ability as the alumni to Arizona state to see that they've hired a lot of the people I was in school with to really build under president Michael Crow and they've moved in a huge direction trying to woo. A lot of native people to their programs. But I know University Of Arizona has the same and when you take that same model and you apply it to South Dakota there are so many similarities where you have a super conservative state surrounding native populations which usually don't. 16:58.15 archpodnet Um. 16:59.82 Richie Fall in the category of supercon conservativevative and so there's some interesting parallels to where I went to grad school in the southwest and I guess the irony is I was trained on Yaeys and I worked a lot with the cocoa put tribe and I finished my work. 17:01.18 archpodnet Motion. 17:18.22 Richie The southwest only to come back to South Dakota and the assumption is I'm a plains indian specialist and I wasn't trained in that area but I jumped into it without having to worry much because I guess just growing up and so forth with my family and. 17:25.92 archpodnet Um, Susan. 17:37.79 Richie Angles from that privilege of not having to I guess you know I didn't have to study things to know things that I had already known or as I said to one of my advisors in Asu. What took you 30 years to figure out as a brilliant discovery. Something that a kid whose grandparents are are speaking their language while they're watching you know and playing Nintendo it's something that's just common day-to-day life. So being being in a hybrid position like that. It's different and then that. 18:05.64 archpodnet Um. 18:16.80 Richie Kind of falls towards the whole notion of native anthropology and what does that mean and you know to be native skateboarder studying skateboarders because you are a skateboarder versus you're a native person. Whatever that might mean studying a topic originally in the discipline. It was frowned upon and. Was right around the late 90 s that that turn in methodology started to happen so that that idea of autoethnography and self-refllexivity were really taking hold. It's it's interesting to watch that stuff and. I guess situate myself within it I'm watching the sorry as as I said I live in rural south dakota so the Fedex guy just pulled up in the mud I can see him out there. The dogs haven't gotten them hopefully my kids figure that out. Um. 19:07.80 archpodnet Um. 19:12.22 Richie Hold on one second and I'm gonna yell apologize. Ah guys can you get the Fedex Mas right? Okay up Anyways I leave that one Hopefully the dogs don't get them. 19:16.10 archpodnet Um, no, there is. 19:29.33 archpodnet Um, noise. 19:32.12 Richie Um, yeah, so I don't know where I was with that one but hopefully I answered you know the the kind of entrance into things I could keep talking on it and kind of circle it into the tribal college interface and when I left gateside. So. 19:44.74 archpodnet Um, yeah me with you. 19:50.45 Richie I ah was able to bring a major in american indian studies to what had previously been ah simply a minor in american indian studies at South Dakota state university I spent from 2008 to 2012 the end of it in Dc. Walked away to South Dakota state university in 2012 did what I guess I could and in the border of regents of South Dakota which ultimately are kind of underneath the jurisdiction of christineome and the governor and a very conservative slant. Um, so doing what you can in terms of trying to I don't know if I'd say enlighten. But I used to tease in some of my classes with predominantly non-native students and say I just want you to be nice to indians whenever you come into contact with them and. 20:48.96 archpodnet Um, a sad start? Yeah, um. 20:49.33 Richie Somewhat of a joke but sort of a sad truth. Um, what does that mean, you know what? what are the perceptions. Yeah I mean some of my colleagues from one from the economics department. Well I was at Sdsu said rich. He brought me up to the little microbrewery and. On his second pint said so I got to ask you? what?? What's your opinion on the Indian problem and us it's like ah so what are what?? What do you? want me to say. 21:15.55 archpodnet What and did. 21:22.15 Richie Yeah, and he said you know the Indian Problem. What's your perspective on it and I guess it depends on what you mean by that I said and who's who is it that you're asking I said if you ask my family who are Native. It's not the Indian problem. It's the white people problem. They all came and never left and that's the problem. And he wasn't sure what to do, but that idea of how do you?? How do you frame Out. You know what is celebrated as Pioneer success and rugged individualism in a space of reclaiming you know, lands and sovereignty and. 21:41.24 archpodnet Um, you know. 21:58.55 Richie The supreme court case of the black hills indicating that you know the lands were taken illegally you're still on technically native lands that were defined in a treaty so those are those are the current realities of always dealing with different things. But. In the South Dakota context leaving the east side of the state. There's a big divide in South Dakota it's not horrible, but it's real and tangible. It's called East River versus West River I met my wife she's cistton wapton up there in the Dakota reservation and my kids we came back here and we left the town of brookings on the east side of the state and I decided to come back to the tribal college at that point and like I said I'd always told my grandma I would be back. But I wasn't sure when that would be and we came back to the western side of the Pine Ridge reservation and we moved into the current well vice president of the tribe's house. She was away and we kind of. Rent it from her in the town of porcupine and um I worked for the college and so did my wife for a year or so she subsequently went into working for the tribal schools and works at the crazy order school where I sit on the board currently and I was you know. 23:32.77 Richie Trying to just keep my head low and teach but started to acquire a different type of tokenism on the reservation which is I had a Ph D and I was native versus in the mainstream institution I had a Ph D and I was native but it was inverted so I was the token. Physically in those other places and spaces whereas at the tribal college I was in terms of credentials. The one with the token reality of having a Ph D but at the same time being a native person with ties to the community. 24:08.68 archpodnet I. 24:10.82 Richie So those things made it an inverted tokenism so that's always an interesting one to deal with. But yeah, so in 17 I moved back to the reservation and at the tribal college moving from the. Sociology and anthropology and all sorts of Jack of all trades geography philosophy psychology and the humanities department I ended up having to teach graduate classes and ultimately moving into the graduate program and department and. Heading that up for a few years before I made the decision to go back to federal service and work predominantly with tribes directly on different initiatives. So that's the long and the short of it far as you know. Different things. But I guess being a community member to my town. Um and having a job I guess that's always if I was to grab large data sets to indicate again. What I sort of alluded to earlier. 25:22.42 Richie If you're to think about the United States of America and 10% unemployment is probably considered super high and people start freaking out is is sort of what I kind of gather. But when you're in a community where you know between 80 to 90% are 25:33.57 archpodnet Um. 25:41.41 Richie Constantly unemployed and and the rough 10 to 15% who are employed are the inverse of mainstream america so the reality of joblessness and economic deprivation is you know I think that's hard for. Someone in America to fathom are awful for reservation to understand what's also a big challenge I think is the concept of immigrants immigrants left their homelands for economic reasons oftentimes are you know other. 26:06.44 archpodnet Um, when are. 26:20.98 Richie Obviously serious or life-threatening moments but at the same time That's what you know is distinguishing ah between indigenous people and immigrants as immigrants leave and the people who you know ended up on these spaces. This isn't. Somewhere you would leave. It's your home. So why would you leave? That's always something that shocks people I think and it's interesting to see that both at a detached institutional level or on the ground. So. Some of those things play out in all sorts of ways and I guess my anthropology is somewhat of applied anthropology at all moments and so that that initial question of how did I end up in anthropology. It just makes sense that in english. That's what I'd call it. And as far as being a lakota person. Um, when you're dealing with the world every day is somewhat of an anthropological journey if you're engaged with people in the english language It's going to be anthropology. 1 or 1. 27:39.30 archpodnet Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um, okay so I have I have all the questions going through my brain right now? Um, but I guess let's start with um. 27:51.75 Richie Um, fit me. 27:55.39 archpodnet Let's let's talk a little bit more about what you do in your current job right now with the forest service. 28:01.30 Richie Sure? ah, so in my current job I began September first and I teased and I'm still saying it that I'm gonna remain the new guy for the next five years because the most you know I guess abundant reality that. Confirmed on the daily for me is I never worked in Usda never mind the forest service and um, being that there's many people who have you know they're going on long-term careers and they started by fighting fires and. Climbing the ranks within the organization I'm completely coming as an outsider but I'm coming into a position and all these positions are with this new administration under Biden that were chopped under the previous administration. So. The ebbs and flows of funding and non-funding for tribal relations are an interesting thing. Um I saw the job advertisement and the appeal was there simply because it seemed like again a way to bridge anthropological connectivity to work. 29:16.64 Richie With the tribes the expectations of the trust obligations and the treaty and the relationship of the federal government to the tribes affiliated with the federal lands of the forest. Um, the description of the job to me was everything that I've always done. And so I was like wow I could have an actual full-time job completely devoted to that and maybe I'll have time on the side to do my own anthropological projects and writings which ironically at the tribal college I was teaching 6 to 7 classes on top of running. 29:36.39 archpodnet Um. 29:51.45 archpodnet Wolf. 29:53.41 Richie The department on top of running grants and on top of running the Irb and being a gatekeeper to other research so there was a lot of just too many hats to wear and and to try to. I Guess do that job effectively and try to get to my own academic interests. It was it was ah I think it was in route to a heart Attack. So I I made that decision to shift for equality of life and still. 30:14.37 archpodnet Um. 30:21.50 archpodnet Um, he yeah. 30:28.70 Richie You know, highly involved in the community and education on our reservation from different boards and educational meetings and whatnot. But yeah, the the shift to the forest has been interesting because I had previously worked at the department of interior. And within that indian affairs at the department of interior is a fascinating history. Obviously the notion of the department of defense and the b I a were the same entity until they built the pentagon but the idea of. The vi I comes out in one 24 and the way that the United States expanded was obviously taking lands from native tribes across the country and in whatever capacity that entailed you have the department of interior evolving in the us federal government in one forty nine and department of everything else as it was called and you have the flora the fauna fish and wildlife a bureau of Land Management National parks and there you got the indians which no one was really sure you know or wanted to say it's kind of awkward. You keep the flora and fauna. And native people in that category. But ah, but yeah that that one was one of the the job things back when I took that job was to try to clean up the appearance of bi I a in that I had a higher education I wasn't just indian preference hired. 31:43.73 archpodnet Ah. 31:59.40 Richie I was brought in on an honors program that dissolved due to the politics of it was started under Bush and the Obama administration had you know far more appealing reactions and respect towards native people. But. That particular program that brought me in was dissolved because it had started under Bush so I don't believe there's an honors program for bi or for indian affairs and so there's a reputation that is there and people again I don't work for them. So I don't really feel bad for. Kind of exposing it but a lot of people in vi don't have formal educations and there was a lot of people and it was exposed while I was working there who were pulling in hefty salaries with maybe an associates degree at a Gs 14 level and it was like wow what do you do. And so there was a lot of interesting relationships there that I observed while at the department of interior so now being in the forestry. It's underneath Usda but congressionally forestry and so forth is. I think congressionally appropriate it from the same department of interior funds. So they're close and then to the tribes often because forestry wears green and so does the park service. Sometimes the tribes aren't too sure. What's the difference. The federal government's all the same and so you know has. 33:24.67 archpodnet Um, yeah. 33:31.35 Richie As your ah your whole podcast I'm sure is is somewhat centered on the idea of the world of heritage and heritage programs and tribal relations falls under heritage programs and. It used to fall on heritage program directors and then when you hire a travel relations specialist. What is their role and it's it's just a really fascinating interface and so with the anthropology background and um, yeah, different experience. There's this interesting. Space that I I guess I would say I I don't mind it I knew what I was getting into but I live in the town of wambly on the piner reservation and I work in the town of Custer of all places. It's ah it's a bit of a hike to get to Custer and yet. 34:18.64 archpodnet Um. 34:23.10 Richie I can telework and so you know that makes it a little bit better the distance at least it's about two and half to 3 hours drive um I stay in custers part of the week and then I'm afforded the option and ability to telework on a few days so ah can be back in my community and keep my my connections and connectivity here and but yeah, working in a non-native town. That's not only non-native but named after George Armstrong Custer I find it funny and so. 34:46.00 archpodnet Are. 34:53.91 archpodnet Um, yeah. 35:01.34 Richie It's it's a little bit amusing maybe too much to me. But um, yeah, that's that's my current reality as the tribal relations person is trying to do my best to facilitate the involvement of both sides of stakeholders on the tribal side to the. Federal government side and the policies currently under the Biden administration are moving towards co-steewardship and that's admirable and and what that means ultimately is it's a first step in perhaps giving back lands that. Could go back to the tribes and control of the tribes if they get the infrastructure to do it. There's that opportunity. So it's ah it's an interesting time to be in the government for sure. It could sadly the pendulum could switch and whoever gets in if they redo or. 35:53.78 archpodnet Um, and vinna. 35:58.25 Richie Undo the understanding of the trust relationship to tribes they could dissolve a lot of things and again the pendulum could go the other way So that's I guess the nature of working in the federal government with tribes in that regardt. 36:07.85 archpodnet My head. 36:15.94 Richie And read in that regard I guess. 36:18.43 archpodnet Um, yeah, all right? Um, we are at our second break point but hold on we'll be right back here in a second. 36:27.64 Richie Link to.