00:01.52 heritagevoices Okay, and so diving right back in um, Seth let's talk about we already talked about 1 of Ryan's highlights of his efforts. Let's talk about a highlight um of yours and maybe what are some of the most. 00:12.79 Seth Nice. 00:18.70 heritagevoices You know, creative or or effective outcomes that you've seen in your work. 00:23.50 Seth Sure, yeah, um, so definitely one of the one of the highlights of my career so far was a project that I was involved in add in Montana with the crow tribe that was a few years back that was actually like. 2016 ah and I wasn't a pi I was actually still an undergrad at that time I was actually preparing for grad school. Um, but the archeological team was led by Dr Ed Herman he's at Indian Indiana University in Bloommington and Rebecca Nathan she was the archeologist at the time for the c pro typo and Matthew Rowe Dr. matthew rowe he's at the university of arizona and of course I got to meet a lot of great macrow colleagues out there. Um I'd be remiss if I didn't give a shout out to sun sun 2 legings and. John berggen ground logan white clay anthony wagner there's a lot more that I'll have time and name here but I haven't spoken to those folks in a few years but I hope you're doing well but that that project was really special and it left ah a really big impression on me. Um, and that was really because you know that effort was. Was led by the interest of the you know the tippo their um and their interest around their ancestral bison hunting practices. Ah, and so I believe that interest from you know for the crow goes back to joseph mad medicine crow I think he kind of. 01:52.77 Seth Started those conversations at least from like a historical and archeological perspective about that that history of bison hunting out there and so I never got the I never had the pleasure of meeting Mr Madison crow before you passed away but just being involved in that project even in a small capacity. Was an incredible experience and um, yeah, the people we worked with and got them know is what made that special and then you know the my current work like I've already mentioned with my tribe that worked is you know, really special and personal for me for all obvious reasons and so yeah I just feel really content. And and happy and really fortunate to be able to do that work and especially that my you know my community has entrusted me to with that sort of partnership. 02:42.30 heritagevoices Um, yeah, that's amazing. Sounds like a yeah, a really incredible experience. Um, Okay so thinking about all of all of your experiences throughout your career for both of you. Um, what? What would you offer like it 3 pieces of advice for people who are looking to to work with with tribes or descended communities um trying to trying to do more community based work. What would you tell them. 03:18.70 Seth Ron Do you you want to take that and I'll follow you or great. Okay, um, so so advice that I would give people for this doing this sort of work I I mentioned this a little bit before I ready but I I think it really is important worth repeating. 03:19.59 Ryan How about you lead us off Seth. 03:35.30 Seth You really have to enter these these partnerships with ah you know Goodwill and patience like I said before humility. It really is really important and letting those kind of values and that mindset guide your your efforts and you know that's true of of any community right? Yes I don't know if. Indigenous communities are necessarily unique in that way. But um, you know with american indian communities and nations right? it that that can be compounded sometimes because of that you know the fraught relationship or the fraught history I should say this involved there sometimes um and so I mentioned. Earlier too. You know you may run into some opposition in the sense that people some people. Um you know in indigenous communities may not want sites disturbed and then others may you know support the work as a means to an end and you know that that end being the documentation and preservation of. Cultural heritage so you need to be I think you need to be open criticism sometimes in that sense. But more importantly I mean you need to be able to talk be able to talk through those things and find common ground and um, yeah again I don't native communities aren't unique in that regard. But. That's true, probably of any community but that is one piece of advice I would ah offer and I would also lastly I would just a advise you know scholars who want to do this work or I haven't done it before to be really careful or mindful about getting too far ahead of yourself. 05:07.66 Seth With ah your research design your your grant writing etc because you know for for that to be a true partnership. You need to be working with community members. You know from the beginning of all that so their perspectives and interest and their their knowledge are included and. 05:11.23 heritagevoices Me hope. 05:25.80 Seth You you know the entirety of the sort of the research process not just the actual field work or you know anything that happens after that and so that's what I that those that's my 2 sentence. 05:37.97 Ryan Thanks for that Seth I want to I want to add on and first just echo what you said about humility and listening more than you talk I think falls into that same category. 05:51.49 Seth Um. 05:51.90 Ryan Um, I've had a number of people tell me through the years that research moves at the speed of relationship in communities and relationship building is not something that can be rushed and so what that means is we have to cultivate ongoing relationships. 05:57.51 heritagevoices A. 06:11.51 Ryan With indigenous peoples and and other communities because moments of environmental and cultural crisis are are not the time to initiate relationship building while that can happen. It's not an ideal time and. Effective work can happen in those moments of those those those difficult moments if relationships are already established and there's already been a degree of trust building I guess my other piece of advice and i. Have to put this out there because Seth and I both belong to ah a tribe whose recognition status is impacted by a termination era of federal law that is still in effect today. Um I just want to say that in the us tribal recognition status. 07:03.20 Seth But. 07:05.11 Ryan Is not a measure of indigeneity neither does it predict the degree to which native people hold cultural connections to place and so the advice that I would give to consultants Regulators students even to shippos and hippos or experts in this area. 07:09.30 heritagevoices Um. 07:23.62 Ryan Is to look at resources like the advisory council on historic preservations publish guidance on working with non-federly recognized tribes and indigenous peoples because they affirm this message that recognition status doesn't prescribe. Um, the degree to which an indigenous community stands to experience cultural or environmental harm due to development and or climate change and other practices and sometimes we use that list of. Federally recognized tribes as as shorthand for screening a region to figure out who we need to talk to and and we have a number of folks especially in the southeast who who are not on that list for a variety of reasons and so. Ah, frustration for me is to see my tribe and other tribes that I work with constantly left out of conversation because decision makers are only interested in doing the the minimum legal standard of section. 1 of 6 consultations extremely important. Um, but we do have guidance to take a broader approach when it comes to tribal engagement and so that's the advice I'd like to offer. 08:46.89 heritagevoices See This is the bad thing about a podcast you guys can't see me like nodding my head the entire time that you guys are talking like yes. Ah, um, yeah, totally agree with everything that both of you just said. Um. 08:51.46 Seth Um, yeah. 09:01.77 heritagevoices And so I'm curious. Um for both of you. You know we've talked a lot about um you know hydrology or environmental sciences and um anthropology and you know both fields or all of those fields having um. Grown a lot in recent years and in terms of working with ah you know living people especially like understanding the the cultural components. Um like you both were saying so um, what what direction would you like to see the fields that each of you work in. 09:26.67 Seth Um, yeah. 09:38.13 heritagevoices Um, go in the future. What would you like to see you know more of less of changed etc. 09:48.30 Seth Um, so I would you know obviously I would I hope but that that current you know trends that I see in archeology regarding regarding you know, ah many archaeologists working with you know the great work they're doing with different Indian nations I Hope to see that continue and of course. You know there's there's plenty of room right for growth and improvement in that word. But I think it's encouraging and I hope that that you know trend continues and you know I think the more we work together. Um, as far as you know, archaeologists and indigenous communities the more that work just becomes typical practice. You know, rather than some special subset. 10:22.86 heritagevoices Um, okay. 10:24.81 Seth Of archeology and you know when that happens that kind of ah ah, kind of best practice it trickles down to our students and then you know so and so forth. Um to you know the point where our students today become that next generation of researchers and I hope that in the future. 10:42.38 Seth You know it just becomes common practice. It's just how you do archaeology rather than a special subset of community based you know, archeology and um, you know real quickly about things that I would like to see changed I Guess I Personally I think that. The way grad school and archeology. Um the way grad school and publication deadlines and and grant writing are are all structured right now it may it can make you know genuine partnerships more difficult because of the time pressures involved kind of like at every level. Um. 11:10.87 heritagevoices Are. 11:17.17 Seth You know so like when you're working on your Phd. Ah those timelines they aren't really conducive to meaningful. You know relationship building and engagement with communities and of course you know there there are exceptions to that some programs are doing that really deliberately. But. Typical grad school experience I just think makes it tough sometimes times to do community-based work. Um, and so I think it's just a big part of that is you don't usually have the runway right? like the time to develop those relationships and that trust same same thing for grant writing deadlines and publication. You know. Process you the way that that generally you know goes through review and stuff in those timelines just too often I just think that those things aren't very conducive to co-producing you know knowledge with your community partners. So those are just someone like that. You know. Big structural aspects of anthropology that I think and I I think in hope can be improved in the future. This sort of continue to facilitate more meaningful collaboration. And um, you know again I want to stress that plenty plenty of folks are doing great work within that structure already. But you know, just generally speaking I think that those kinds of things the way they're currently you know constructed can interfere. 12:32.95 heritagevoices Absolutely. 12:38.88 Ryan Seth I absolutely agree with you on the on these issues around timelines especially with the the timelines associated with external grants right? We see a lot of. Researchers just churning through communities still today and and a lot of that is driven by these externally imposed schedules funding agencies. Um, yeah, these these are these are such good questions. 13:14.83 Ryan And Jessica um, there's such good questions I'm going to stop and ask you if you can revive you what question I'm supposed to be answering because my mind just went off a cliff. 13:23.80 heritagevoices Ah, yeah, um, so the the question was and you know thinking about Hydrology and environmental sciences and obviously you've talked about um that it's it's made progress and um. 13:24.23 Seth Um, yeah, that happens. 13:39.26 heritagevoices You know, understanding the cultural aspect and the um human dimensions aspect. Um, is there like what direction would you like to see um those fields go in the future. There are there things you'd like to see you know more of less of things changed. Um, for Hydrology and environmental sciences. Yeah. 14:00.43 Ryan Yes, I'm back. Okay I I see an opportunity that that could be shared by the environmental sciences and the anthropology communities I think this is a ah direction that that. 14:02.65 Seth And. 14:20.90 Ryan Both of our areas of scholarship and practice could be moving and and this is the um this is the growing awareness of indigenous data sovereignty and data governance. In other words, Um, who owns the data that are being collected about indigenous peoples. 14:30.50 heritagevoices The name. 14:39.16 Ryan Um, what types of data are subject to to this idea of indigenous peoples exerting governance over these data sets is it just limited to um to things like health data or cultural data or what about environmental data. That are collected on tribal lands and so this emerging area of indigenous data governance I see it raises some really important questions and we've got um some great work by people at the Native Nations institute at the University Of Arizona who have developed. Um, a set of principles and that that that should guide. Um our decisions when it comes to data collection and management. Um, but I think this is extremely important because both of our fields collect data that can weigh in. On indigenous people's relationships to place their historical ties and their their experiences with the environment in the present and I firmly believe that indigenous people should have a right to to? um. Um, to to own those types of data and sometimes that can come into conflict with institutional missions or things like this but in the same way that we're having this national record um in the same way that we're having this national reckoning. 16:11.13 Ryan Around repatriation of ancestral remains um within universities and museums and other institutions I I think it's time for us to to have a similar reckoning over the types of data that we're collecting in our fields and in other fields. 16:30.47 heritagevoices Yeah, um, so I was looking up. You said it was native nation because that would probably be good for the show notes. Um. 16:36.50 Ryan Yes, native Nations Institute at University Of Arizona and there's a paper called the care principles of indigenous data governance. 16:49.40 heritagevoices Let's see here's publications shoot Okay well we can look for that after oh wait I think maybe I found it? Okay, um, but we'll we'll check back in after um. 16:54.41 Ryan Yeah. 17:06.10 heritagevoices Okay, so um, yeah, with with all of that in mind. Um, and on you know how you want to do this kind of work and how you'd like to see the field like what direction you'd like to see the field. Go. What would you boast like to um, like what work. Do you want to be doing in the future where do you want to go with with all of this. 17:34.39 Seth Um, so I mean I hope to continue the work that I'm going with my community and just continue to develop a permanent partnership between the tribe and and app state that ah you know hopefully facilitates opportunities for the. Tribe to pursue their interest and train app state students you know and community-based learning train mumbies and skills that maybe they can use to work for the tippo going forward and just try to contribute to my community's cultural heritage. You know management initiatives and. Communicating that work to our community and the broader public and um I also on top of that I hope to continue working with other native communities as well. Whenever I can be have helped them. So 1 thing that you know is ah, kind of a. Uniting thread through my research is I just want to tell stories of of native histories in a maybe a different way compared to typical archeological narratives of the past and um, so in my teaching and my research you know I try to emphasize the. 18:37.20 heritagevoices A. 18:44.49 Seth Incredibly rich histories and achievements of native people here and educate our our students and the public about the intellectual and and cultural diversity native of Native America Both you know in the past and the present so that they go out you know into the world. Remember these things right? Even if they don't necessarily go on to be. Anthropologists or researchers. 19:08.20 Ryan I would just add. Ah well to be blunt. We need more scholars like Seth we need native scholars who are at the forefront of their academic fields and they've gotten there while still centering. Their own cultural values and perspectives and not forgetting the communities that they come from and actively seeking out opportunities to engage build relationship and contribute to the well-being of those communities. Every time I go to Robinson County now I get an update on. Yeah, what Seth and his students are doing or or when they're coming down and I was I was just in pembroke last night and our hippo. I overheard a conversation between him and and another tribal administrator and and I heard I heard that Seth and his students are coming down this weekend and there's a lot of excitement about that I'm really excited about that too. So I'm really encouraged by the work that Seth is doing and I think that we need. More native people coming through. Yeah, what are admittedly colonial disciplines but we're taking the tools and the skills that we need from those disciplines and we're bending and reshaping them back towards the the well-being of the communities that we come from and that is an important. 20:21.49 heritagevoices Um, yeah. 20:34.44 Ryan Philosophy and mindset and I'm really encouraged by what I've seen from Seth and other early career native scholars so far. 20:42.76 Seth Yeah, thank you I Just wanted to say real quickly. Thank you for the kind words run and I hope that I mean your work Your scholarship has serveded as a role you know like a model right for for my work and my scholarship and and I try to remember those things you know. 20:43.17 heritagevoices Um, that's awesome and what about. 20:59.95 Seth As I go in and teach and conduct research in the classroom and the community every day that you know hopefully I can look back at some point and end up being a ah model in that sense for you know this generation of students as well. So thank you humor. 21:12.47 Ryan Yeah, absolutely. 21:17.37 heritagevoices Um, and Ryan what what about you? What do you? What would you like to do moving forward. 21:22.59 Ryan Um, I think what I have on my short term radar is just getting my my my book out in the world. So yeah I've got a. 21:31.79 heritagevoices Um, yeah, so exciting. 21:35.86 Ryan Ah, book coming out with the university of North Carolina Press in April of 2024. It's called on the swamp fighting for indigenous environmental justice and so on the swamp is lumby colloquialism that just means in the neighborhood or or around the community. And so the book is um, an exposition of some of the environmental threats to lumbies and to our indigenous neighbors and responses to those threats by our own communities by outside actors. And what it means for promoting justice and promoting indigenous rights for us and for native peoples all over the region and so I'm really excited that that's going to be on the world soon. 22:25.38 heritagevoices Yeah, it's so exciting sounds like a super interesting book I definitely want to check it out once it comes out. Um and you said it's going to be called on the swamp fighting for indigenous environmental Justice did I get that right? all right. 22:38.70 Ryan That's correct. Yep and it's already available on bookshop.org for preorder. 22:43.82 heritagevoices Okay, bookshop.org all right? Well I Just want to say? Thank you so much. Um to both of you for for taking the time and coming on but also for the the really important work that you're doing you know across so many things and you know not just educating students. But. Also you know the work fighting for your communities and advocating for what they'd like to see and it's It's just really Inspiring. So Thank you so much for both of you for coming on and sharing and showing that ah this work can be done across a lot of different disciplines. So Thank you. 23:18.11 Ryan Yeah, thanks for the invitation Jessica and Seth has been great to sit with you virtually this morning. 23:24.37 Seth Absolutely yes, thank you I'll echo that. Thank you Jessica for the opportunity and Ryan is always great to chat with you. Hopefully I can see in person again soon. 23:32.31 Ryan I know.