00:00.93 heritagevoices Okay, we are back and we are. We're just having too much fun during these breaks so we we got it. We we got to dive back in. Make sure we get some of this good stuff on air for you guys to listen to. So um, chance First of all, what? Um, you know, having done this training. What would you say um, are things that you took from this training that you are going to apply in your future work. 00:28.48 Chance Ward I Think one of the first things is that me or me and everybody else were not alone in our whatever stage of learning we're in that there is a community out there that we. 00:38.95 heritagevoices Are. 00:48.50 Chance Ward Didn't know existed but we do now you know we we exchange contact information. There's this Google share drive that we're all going to have access to and I did contribute a Pdf document I wrote into it so far. Um, and in the training I think you know hearing the experiences that Jane Lee had has had especially when she talked about that tribes need to be in the lead on everything. Um, ultimately. 01:25.44 Chance Ward You're going to be working at the pleasure of their time and schedule and I think that's what a lot of the universities and universities and museums don't quite understand is they want answers now they want responses as soon as possible. Without taking into consideration tribal peoples schedules. You know Tippo offices are always swamped just inundated with mail email understaff underfunded. So I I feel like I have a good. Position or perspective because I was able to be on both sides of that spectrum I worked in a Tippo office and got to handle their mail and emails myself so I know well what they receive or don't receive and now I'm on the museum side. And I get to see ah the museum folks sort of want tribal people to respond quicker and you know I often have to kind of facilitate the conversation of well you know they're understaffed and they're underfunded and. Probably busy and they have tribal ceremonies so they're not going to respond as quick as you want them to and you know even things like it to take into consideration cultural care needs like. 02:58.70 Chance Ward How to house ancestors how to handle them How to how to feed them if your museum professional is capable or has the ability to do these cultural and spiritual feedings and that's something I I didn't think of until recently. But. 03:03.53 Jayne_Leigh Thomas Oh. 03:18.66 Chance Ward Will they do it in the same care that tribal people will do it and um, let's see try and think of something else. 03:37.44 Chance Ward Um I got on a rant and then it all all vanished. 03:38.19 heritagevoices Okay, look at rock good. 03:47.79 heritagevoices If you're if you're feeling like that's good then then we can move on. But if you want to you know like take all the time you need. Okay, okay, cool. Um. 03:54.79 Chance Ward I mean I'll say that's good for now until let's say think of something else. 03:58.90 Jayne_Leigh Thomas Open up. 04:04.56 heritagevoices Right? So I guess this question then goes for for both of you. Um, and so I guess well first we'll start with chance since you were just talking about this. What would be if you could um, make sure that people knew just like 1 thing. About nag pra you know based on that experience from all those different positions like what would you? What would you want people to know. 04:32.59 Chance Ward Um I think it would be to be aware of the history that native people have with colonial institutions Universities Museums Even the fields of Archeology. That those past relationships and ongoing relationships are still there so being the representative of a state government a University a museum that you're automatically going to. Be blamed for those institutional mistakes and that's going to always loom over you no matter what? so always be aware of that and always be respectful. 05:08.61 heritagevoices Um. 05:11.58 heritagevoices So. 05:21.56 heritagevoices Um, yeah, yeah I feel like that's always a tricky one for people. Um, because they're like but it wasn't me. Yeah, that's that's hard. Um. 05:27.60 Chance Ward Yeah, yeah, and then me as a native person in this role. You know I'm getting like double the double the working for the. 05:37.58 heritagevoices Um, yeah, yeah. 05:46.96 Chance Ward Opposing team. Basically. 05:49.19 heritagevoices Um, yeah, well and I think there's you know a lot to be said for for being able to like you said understand where that's all coming from and be um, being able to like handle that with grace. 06:00.82 Chance Ward Um. 06:05.62 heritagevoices Um, you know there's um, like even if if you're not understanding like fully what's happening or um, just like that it is kind of um, it can be kind of ah a healing moment I guess. For for the other person to um, you know be heard and be respected like in your response to that and you know because it's easy to want to like defend yourself, but like that um that that ah handling it with grace can can be much more. Um, like positive for for everybody involved that was not very eloquent but hopefully you know what I mean so um, Jane Jane Lee what about you? Um, if there was um. 07:00.90 heritagevoices If there was 3 things that you wanted but the people that participated in this this program to to come away with about nagpra. Um, what? what were those things. 07:12.90 Jayne_Leigh Thomas Um, I think the first one would be just the importance of meaningful consultation consultation is what the tribes want it to be sometimes that is a Zoom call because the tribes are super busy. Um, for the most part face to face consultation is the best way. Universities need to get out behind their desk get out of the email behind the emails and go and visit communities sit and learn and listen and you know don't just show up and and talk shop. You know you're you're creating relationships and that's not something that can be done overnight. Especially if an institution has a history of slow or no compliance. That's that's not again, that's not something that's going to happen quickly. I think also with those consultations and in any nag for work universities needs to step back and put the tribes in the driver's seat. However, that the tribes wish that to be like I said whether that's Zoom calls whether that's face-to-face consultations. Whatever is going to be best for the community. Perhaps it's just emails. That's the way they want to work. Perhaps they want to come to the commute or your university a. Um, have the tribes make the decisions for how collections are curated how they're taken care of how the return how they're repatriated I think there's a lot of instances where um people they can work with tribes but they. 08:42.72 Jayne_Leigh Thomas Either flaunt the number of degrees they have or their position in the university in that they're the ones that should get to make the decision and that's absolutely not true, especially with things like cultural items. The tribe is the expert on their cultural items and and so this just really again comes back to. 08:45.79 heritagevoices Me f. 08:56.81 Chance Ward Yeah. 09:01.41 Jayne_Leigh Thomas To meaningful consultation and relationship building. Um I think also an understanding that nag is definitely each situation even with working with the same tribe It's case-by-case basis on everything especially you know there could be a new person in the role for a community. It's it's. Every single time you start a repatriation project. It may be different than the time before and being willing to understand that I think a lot of universities don't realize that tribes are working with 40 to 50 institutions a year on nagbra compliance. And just because they don't get back to university right? away doesn't mean that that's not important. It's just for the moment they are exceptionally busy. Um this I think was that 3. 09:47.34 Chance Ward Right. 09:56.57 heritagevoices I Think so um, yeah I think that's. 10:00.32 Jayne_Leigh Thomas I think also one thing I might also mention is that you know a lot of institutions view nagpro still is something that they have to do this like carrot versus the stick type of thing and the 1 thing that we've really realized especially here at Indiana is. 10:13.90 heritagevoices Um, ah. 10:19.52 Jayne_Leigh Thomas The amazing effects of the relationship building with all the different collaborative projects that we have going on that started with a nagra discussion. You know whether that be opportunities for native students whether that's collaborative conference presentations. Whether that's new grants coming in whether that's ah. You know posters. There's just so Much. There's so many new things that have come out of the initial nagra discussions that werere just seeing this you know ripple effect across our campus and you know working with different communitys. Ah on all sorts of different projects. And you know that's been beneficial for both University and for tribal communities. 11:01.36 heritagevoices Right? right? Yeah, that's a good point So we're like right at the end here and I'm just curious for both of you is there anything that you're like I didn't get to mention this part or um. 11:01.94 Chance Ward Are. 11:14.92 Jayne_Leigh Thomas Oh. 11:16.99 heritagevoices You know I'd really like to tell people about this or anything that you want to add before we finish up here. 11:29.74 Jayne_Leigh Thomas I just that if anybody is interested. We do have a website for the instep program. But um, just be on the lookout for around December early january for if anyone has an interest or if you have students that have an interest in the training program. We will be putting the application process. Out around that time and I believe the training will be next July and Illinois. 11:52.94 Chance Ward I could definitely share that out with my Ceo grad school program here in my position now and with you know some of the tribes I work with including my own. 12:10.60 Jayne_Leigh Thomas That would be great I appreciate that. 12:12.27 heritagevoices Yeah, and yeah, and you mentioned earlier right? that you guys are are still looking for some funding for next year so if anyone knows of of grants or funders that would want to support an effort like this you know where to find Jane Lee 12:26.61 Jayne_Leigh Thomas Yeah I think we I have we do have some really good ideas and some opportunities but you know any and all suggestions would be very welcome. 12:38.36 heritagevoices Um, yeah, all right? um chance any any last minute thoughts 12:45.48 Chance Ward I mean I have a lot but I actually filled out all the questions that you sent me. So yeah, like like so how did you get into this field. 12:52.96 heritagevoices Yes, yeah, and which we will will just have to do a separate one which is you and I where we get to all of those. Yeah yes, yeah, okay. 13:04.37 Chance Ward Got you interested Actually I have the best story for how I got interested. But maybe yeah right now. 13:11.92 heritagevoices Do tell or what's up to you. We can save it. We can leave everyone in suspense and ok, all right, Everyone we'll just have to stay tuned. Oh that's awesome. Yes. 13:16.48 Chance Ward We can save that one I think it all take a little bit too long. 13:27.81 heritagevoices Um, yeah, so everyone stay tuned Next time we have chance He's got a ah great story for us. Yeah well I mean thank you both so much for coming on. This is really important work and I didn't even realize it was quite that needed I mean I knew it was very needed but um. 13:36.12 Chance Ward Um. 13:47.50 heritagevoices But yeah I guess I would have assumed that there would have been at least 1 nagpro program out there somewhere so that's that's pretty shocking to me. 14:00.44 Chance Ward Yeah I I you know didn't realize that the training that I was getting wasn't ideal I guess i. Kind of just thought that's just the way it is but you know going to this training and being able to hear about Jane Lee's work and her experiences that you know she's right. There is no training other than Youtube or Npi. 14:18.65 heritagevoices Here. 14:30.19 heritagevoices Now. 14:34.23 Jayne_Leigh Thomas I believe the institute of American Indian Arts and hopefully I'm not incorrect on this. They used to have a repatriation class in a semester and I believe that there may be a couple other programs that have. Ah, semester class on repatriation or nag prep but it's it's there's no actual master's degree. There's no actual workshop or not workshop and and stuff so um. 14:52.45 heritagevoices Yeah. 14:58.72 Chance Ward Um, yeah. 14:59.55 heritagevoices Um, yeah. 15:04.67 Jayne_Leigh Thomas Ah, yeah, particularly for those folks who are already professionals. There's There's definitely no no options and the ones that are out there either don't get into the logistics or their cost prohibitive. 15:14.31 heritagevoices Yeah, yeah, what. 15:18.32 Chance Ward Yeah, in grad school. There was no section on Nag press. We had to be creative and kind of create our own ah like reading group or study group where we can talk about these things and we reviewed case studies. 15:36.25 Chance Ward Assigned articles with each other so that we can have these discussions. 15:37.65 heritagevoices Yeah, that's and that's a museum focus program. That's pretty crazy for yeah yeah. 15:41.78 Chance Ward Yeah, yeah, and all had to happen outside of class on our personal time. 15:50.85 heritagevoices Well thank you both so much for for not only coming on today I really appreciate that. But also for the the really important work that you're doing and and Jane Lee you might expect applications from both chance and I for for next year thumb look. Ah. 16:05.23 Jayne_Leigh Thomas And yeah, yeah, we'd be Yes, Thank you. 16:07.89 heritagevoices So yeah, thank you again. Thank you both. 16:09.00 Chance Ward Thank you for having us.