00:03.00 archpodnet All right? So we are back from our break and okay so we talked about your work from you know, being a very small child getting into this field and. How you were influenced by your uncle and and really interesting your parents you ended up doing kind of an interesting combination of everybody there with your work. But um, I'm curious to hear more looking back at this career. What what are you currently excited about and what are you currently working on. 00:37.57 Michael L_ Blakey Well I'm happy that I um was made co-chair of the American Anthropological Association's commission for the ethical treatment of human remains. Um by the executive board. 00:55.77 Michael L_ Blakey With Deborah Thomas and we have brought together a stellar group of anthropologists I think they're mostly physical anthropologists but significant. Um. 01:14.39 Michael L_ Blakey Representation of archeology and cultural anthropology and anatomy. Um, one of the things they have in common is an ethical sensibility and a history of working. Towards better ethics for and here's our charge for the study of cemeteries collections of skeletal remains tissue samples and Dna samples. That's just about everything ah involving the human body that might be studied or that has been studied by anthropologists anatomists, archaeologists and. 02:10.56 Michael L_ Blakey Our charge as I see it is to propose New Best practices and ethical standards. I Believe will be what we'll ask for elevated ethical standards for all those fields archeology Biological Anthropology usology and others genetics and that. 02:32.70 archpodnet Are. 02:46.21 Michael L_ Blakey Handle human remains I believe the inspiration for the aaa's creation of this commission was the fiasco. Um. Involving our colleagues at University Of Pennsylvania in Princeton where the remains of a 1 or 2 children killed in the move bombing the mob bombing of that. 03:24.77 archpodnet Yeah. 03:24.80 Michael L_ Blakey Group's home african-american um social and political organizations home in Philadelphia 1985 it's a long difficult story. 03:43.34 Michael L_ Blakey But the remains of those who burned included ah 2 children's skeletons and it is ah has been really quite well confirmed that at least 1 of them was kept. Should not have been kept by anthropologists at Penn should have been returned to the parents or at least the medical examiner but was instead kept in a private hands of our colleagues and then later. Brought out as a part of a online forensics course. Um and you know displayed. 04:38.85 archpodnet Are. 04:40.12 Michael L_ Blakey Um, it. It took this incident to jar our colleagues sufficiently to realize that they had been objectifying human beings in ways that were unethical. In fact, Janet Mon true was the teacher in this case was not found by a legal team to have been unethical. Well you know that could be debated because it did hurt people for those that child's remains. To have been displayed even where her relatives might have seen it who who thought that she had been reburied by the way. Um, but I think. 05:33.90 archpodnet A. 05:36.38 Michael L_ Blakey Are the reason why it was not seen as unethical if very poor judgment which is what they did come to said. It's not that far from what my colleagues generally do and in fact, I'll just say when we began. 05:51.30 archpodnet A. 05:54.41 Michael L_ Blakey Our use essentially of informed consent in New York on the african burial ground to follow the descendant questions to accept and assume that they would be in charge of the final disposition of their remains. They allowed us to do research and then reburied and created a monument white anthropologists were saying it was reverse racism throughout the 90 s and this kind of nonsense is continued so there are some who read our work and use it. Others who quite petulantly continue to insist that though that was just reverse racism black people were saying only black people could study black people isn't it was never in I never said that in the press this was white fragility. So. 06:48.77 archpodnet 3 06:49.34 Michael L_ Blakey Um, what I'm saying is that anthropology is largely white and physical anthropology is very white and they historically from Herlika or and Warton Onward There has been the objectification of the other. 07:08.48 Michael L_ Blakey And and that also embodies a certain kind of power relationship. Um in which my colleagues have used the other and so accumulated. Collections at the Smithsonian and elsewhere where native americans were able by 1990 to gain control and african african americans are still struggling and now are in a position I think by virtue of this last. Most recent embarrassment. Hopefully we'll be able to see ethical treatment of everyone's human remains and so that's what the commission for the ethical treatment of human remains is. Charge to do to lay out new ethics for everyone's remains and in that effort we've obtained the support of the winterogre foundation to have global listening sessions. So we will be talking with as a commission of 9 people talking with the or some representatives of us will be talking with the um our japanese colleagues and. 08:44.29 Michael L_ Blakey I knew and other indigenous japanese representatives who are concerned about the treatment of human remains by our colleagues there in Japan we'll visit. Um. Australia and at queensland meet with Australian Aboriginal representatives and our colleagues there with a listening session with each and then with both about. Treatment of human remains to understand what the concerns are and limitations and and openness is and then we we have already finished Rachel Watkins with the. Deborah Thomas just finished a listening session in cape town at the University Of Of Western Cape and we had 1 at The American Anthropological Association meetings just talking with our colleagues we move in October of 2023 have ah what we're calling a summit. It's a domestic listening session at the Smithsonian and we are where the idea is it will be partly at least profoundly on the ground of the descendants themselves. 10:19.69 Michael L_ Blakey Um, with some of the sessions for two and a half days with african americans and native americans taking place at the national museum of african american history history and culture and we're working towards. Ah. 10:38.11 Michael L_ Blakey Hoping for ah um, a session of the involvement of the museum of the american indian we've barely gotten started with that talking with others as well in the ah in the Smithsonian. 10:56.95 Michael L_ Blakey Administration so we're very hopeful about that and and elsewhere in Washington we'll have this conversation and then in the end in 2024 having listened accumulating also all of the documents that we can find. About ethicsvolving that might relate to you it remains we will come to our conclusions I've found that good ethics the sharing of information of. Ah, power leads to better questions leads to better science and the ivory tower notion of how to conduct research is. 11:53.45 Michael L_ Blakey Okay, at times but often not the best thing. Um collective influences on research questions produces anthropology of. 12:12.67 Michael L_ Blakey Broader interest so in New York though african americans had often been involved in sort of trips to Egypt from New York or Chicago or Dc you know where they saw their archeological heritage. Domestic African-american Bioareology had been of no interest to african americans though there were some you know, white people liked the you know sort of the ah. 12:47.40 Michael L_ Blakey Often they quite objectified way of understanding them through their bones sometimes better than that. But african americans did not embrace it until it became their project working for them. With questions they were interested in and I think they're much more interesting questions generally than what was produced without that so I'm hoping that the democratization of knowledge will be a product. Of these new ethics. Whatever they are whatever we come to in a year from now. 13:37.20 archpodnet Wow, that sounds like an amazing experience and project and it'll be really interesting to to see the similarities between the 4 countries and and maybe areas where they're they're different as well. Um, and obviously even just within the us I mean that. Difference the diversity of experiences just within the the indigenous communities for example are vast so that'll be that'll be really interesting to see what conclusions you all reach? Um, so 1 question that that keeps coming to my mind. 14:03.43 Michael L_ Blakey Me. 14:11.90 archpodnet That I'd like to ask you you know as someone that supported the development of nagra and then all the way through to the african american burial grounds preservation act in December of twenty twenty two which I should mention in my episode with a. Dr. Jackson and um Delon justin aville um, that um that it hadn't passed when we recorded it yet and and now it has so that's exciting but just from from your experience. in in those years those decades that passed in between. Do you have any thoughts on why there was such a ah disparity in why it took you know decades longer on the african-american burial groundside than than on the nag press side. 15:11.96 Michael L_ Blakey Um, well. 15:17.78 Michael L_ Blakey I think the pret the the issue of human remains ah stored in museums um excavated from. Ancient cemeteries without permission was more a native american problem than an african-american problem. It was also a problem of. Settler States ah when in 1990 I taught as a visiting professor at Las Aens my Roman colleague and I talked about this. He couldn't understand well, what's the problem. You know says we we excavate in the Vatican which they do. Or excav in a brusi where we were and you know community people come out and I remember we had a great you know celebration one night with food around a cemetery site. These were the descendants. You know we sang volari. It was not contentious, but these were their ancestors and the people involved in the excavation you know were also italian um, and so my. 16:37.64 archpodnet Are. Right. 16:53.96 Michael L_ Blakey Colleague Alfredo Coppa and I you know sort of agreed. Oh this is a problem of settler states where the ancient history is the history of the occupied and the archaeologists are the occupiers or their descendants or their cousins. 17:00.81 archpodnet A. 17:12.42 Michael L_ Blakey Don't know which maybe it's the occupied and the occupiers still so in that you know one can read the problem for native americans. Native alaskans and native ha wians um I watched them organize I as a member of the world. Archeological congress worked with Larry Zimmerman at the first inner congress in vermilion. And developed a vermilion accord um with many native americans and some native australians and others Clyde snow the great forensic anthropologist human rights forensic anthropologist was there as well. Ah. 18:08.69 Michael L_ Blakey Leslie Reicen Hill was there but there were very few physical anthropologists who would show up at this meeting which was meant to I organize a session to build bridges between native americans and ah my profession. And the word came to us partly from people at the Smithsonian and elsewhere Chicago that to talk with the indians would be a professional kiss of death while we are organized. You know running the session or. I'm sorry organizing it and inviting people to come anthropologists to participate so I ignored them as I usually do or took note and moved on forward. Um, but they never. You know there was a point at which there was a debriefing by Jane Bytra at the physical anthropology meeting so they were meeting about in 89 about efforts towards what would become nagbra. And they decided you know they were reporting in this luncheon debriefing that well there are the political indians and then there are reasonable indians and we listen to the reasonable indians who happen to be the ones who agreed with them this reminded me absolutely of the late sixty s this was white. People's nonsense. 19:36.83 Michael L_ Blakey This was an attempt to justify their control by delegitimating the voice of the other as as political. Yeah you bet as were. Ear voices and then I was on in 89 again the the commission. Ah for the something like the disposition of human remains. Was the triple a's attempt to respond and I thought that we had agreed it was under June hem um trying to remember the archeologist there. Um I thought we had agreed in the conversation that the. 20:32.20 Michael L_ Blakey Policy recommendations would be for all people but they had in the last minute you know, watched the last details of the language in the report contained it to native Americans and even that was not as. 20:53.47 Michael L_ Blakey Um, responsive to the empowerment of descendants as either the vermilion accord was or or my thinking of where we had actually you know talked ourselves into. Apparently they were not willing to go that far. So basically they contained it and the one of the reasons therefore that we are back to this issue of african americans or why the african burial ground. Needed to take those steps to establish it there in New York as the empowerment of descendants is because the triple a the white commissions. There were couple of native people on the commission but thinking was so well. We were outwritten in the the final document such that the recommendations were still limited to those that native people. Had already. Ah um, demanded. So of course they are ahead. They they got nagpro. Um. 22:20.40 Michael L_ Blakey There's still more work that needs to be done to shore nagra up tribes need funding to help them implement niagarra and african americans who have. Ah, few thousand remains and at the Smithsonian and other universities including Howard University that's a longer story that. 22:56.83 Michael L_ Blakey Created the cobb collection to counter the racism in the other collections using the other collections like the Smithsonian required Audre Lord calls him the master's tools. The legitimation of having its own collection in order to argue against for Montague Cobb to argue against racism um but at any rate here we are in the twenty first century yes african americans have to catch up. 23:34.69 Michael L_ Blakey And that's one of the reasons for our summit at the Smithsonian in a a little less than a year from now and other descended community gatherings. We have another one at the Smith Center Center of the Smithsonian that'll happen in the spring. In which african americans begin to assemble themselves as descendant communities towards the capacity ah of decision-making over their skeletal remains. You know nagtra is enhanced by the fact that tribal councils can decide. Ah. Through you know, informed consent requires someone reasonably authorized to decide when african americans don't have such an organization for or organizations for those purposes. The senate communities are reasonably assembled at different times as in New York 24:18.38 archpodnet Ray. 24:29.25 Michael L_ Blakey To take action so they need to think about how they want to do that and only they can decide that for themselves so they're being brought together for many purposes and hopefully one of which will be to develop this some sort of polity. That will allow ethics repatriation which Smithsonian is moving forward with I saw something from Lonnie bunch just ah secretary bunch just a few days ago wasn't specific. But I think the writings on the wall. Ah that repatriation of african american anyone's human remains will be possible at the Smithsonian. In short order. 25:32.40 archpodnet Yeah, okay well I again I could I could talk to you for hours and hours I'm sure I have a million questions but we are at the end of our time. Sadly, um, but I hope that maybe you know in 2024 when when you and the commission. 25:38.59 Michael L_ Blakey You can. 25:48.88 archpodnet Reach your conclusions. Maybe maybe you guys will consider coming back and and sharing all of those findings because I think that would be really fascinating. Um, but thank you so much again. Yeah I love it. Okay, thank you so much and um. 25:49.20 Michael L_ Blakey Oh yes. That sounds great. Jessica let's plan to do that. Thank you thanks all right bye bye. 26:06.64 archpodnet Yeah I appreciate it.