00:02.00
archpodnet
Okay, we are back from our break and I want to ask you I want to keep going with this topic a little bit further because it's It's really interesting and um so okay, so you're living in L a.

00:11.75
Oona
Sure.

00:18.50
Oona
Yes.

00:18.10
archpodnet
And I'm curious what your thoughts are you know, growing up in the Philippines um, how? um how indigenous communities were portrayed in the Philippines like you know like maybe in the media or just um conversations that you heard. And then um, maybe how that's different from what you're you're seeing and and hearing in living in l a now.

00:48.70
Oona
Um, well, um, yeah, a good question. Ah, it's ah, very similar but also different. Um similar but distinct the way we think about indigenous peoples in the Philippines and I'm just speaking really broadly. Um. Here and generalizing about the population just based on how I grew up and and conversations I've had with people and and as well as the educational system I went through um is that it's there's very much this civilizational discourse that's attached to the idea of indigenous peoples. Um. Very similar to how um, ah you know you have a lot of stereotypes about native americans and and natives and indigenous peoples. Um, not just in the in the in the north. Um, but but elsewhere in the world. So by the civilizational discourse I mean that you know that there's some some people are more primitive than others or or less evolved culturally or you know, um, less complex culturally and that's definitely at play in the Philippines and part of that was well that was very strongly influenced by. This kind of very racialized thinking that came out of Europe um, in the late eighteen hundreds and was definitely sort of it kind of solidified um during the american colonial period. Um, in the Philippines which started in the late eighteen ninety s um.

02:16.77
Oona
And so ah, there's even a kind of theory of of cultural diversity population diversity in the Philippines ah that we were taught in school. Um, when I was growing up. Um and it's still sort of. A lot of people still believe this and it's still propagated in many ways even though it's already been debunked definitively you know by by scientists by anthropologists and it's the waves of migration theory and and that theory goes that the reason why in the late 18 hundreds early nineteen hundreds. Um, why by that time you had um basically the sort of very um, ah very hispannized, um, christianized mainstream groups that were dominant um in in the archipelago. And you also had these much smaller groups that were you know I guess to the general public ah sort of tribal you know with all the the stereotypes that that that come with it. You know smaller communities that. We're not very western. Not very comprehensible. You know in in terms of western culture and and so the the idea of of ah behind ways of migration is that the reason why you have this sort of cultural diversity in in the Philippines now is because.

03:46.22
Oona
Um, thousands and thousands of years ago you had different waves of people coming in to the archipelago with their present day cultures basically fully formed and um the the level if you will of cultural achievement that they and sophistication that they were able to.

03:55.98
archpodnet
Here.

04:06.70
Oona
Um, display had to do with their level of um, ah evolution their whatever step on the evolutionary ladder they were on and the and and also behind that.

04:20.76
Oona
Ah, sort of the the subtext of that is that the reason why you have the mainstream societies where the ones who converted to christianity and became very sort of western and very hispanic. Um, you know mainstream filipino culture is because. They were the last wave of migrants that came and therefore they were the most evolved um and they were the ones who were able to sort of grasp this sort of highly evolved european culture I mean it's ridiculous. It's absolutely ridiculous when you you think about it now but when we were growing up this was taught as sort of scientific. Um, and a lot of people still buy into this idea that and and of course what goes hand in hand with that is that is is is the notion that the the indigenous minorities today that the reason why they are different from mainstream society is not because. Of different historical processes that acted upon them and um, how completely or incompletely or how differently they were incorporated into the colonial into colonial society but that they're just one that they're primitive. They're just more primitive as a. Subspecies of humans and it's a very It's an extremely racist idea. It's definitely a racist idea. That's it's somehow in their biology and then two that their traditional cultures that they practice today are pre-colonial.

05:49.70
Oona
That what how they are today and their their languages their traditions their their songs their dances their understanding of the world is somehow pre-colonial and was not um, transformed profoundly by the colonial experience. Even though the archipelago had been colonized since the fifteen hundreds. So so those those things kind of are are wrapped up in this whole waves of migration idea and and you can only imagine if I mean um, I'm sort of.

06:16.10
archpodnet
Um, yeah.

06:24.31
Oona
You know, giving you a lot of information right now. But when you think about it. You know if you think about it more? Um, you kind of stew on it for a while you realize that how you know that this this can have how how profound the the impact. Um, um, um, could be on how. Indigenous peoples are perceived and and and you know in the Philippines and and how mainstream society society thinks of them you know and what in where they belong in terms of mainstream society. So. There's a lot of ah, very racialized prejudice that um, that ah. Indigenous minority groups are subjected to and at the same time they're they're also being exploited um and being co-opted in um mainstream society's efforts at decolonization you know, um, and and because they're seen as sort of.

07:16.91
archpodnet
He.

07:21.77
Oona
Pre-colonial and therefore that's somehow who we were supposed to be if we had not been colonized so it's it's like there's all these different sort of um, weird forces acting upon where they're you know it's basically damned if you do damned if you don't if you're if you're ah one of these you know in in.

07:39.45
archpodnet
Ah.

07:41.42
Oona
A member of one of these communities. Um, they can't win and they're just being used as tools by mainstream society for their own sort of um, like self-actualization if you call it that and and by decolonization I'm talking about a sort of ah intellectual movement in in the Philippines. It's been.

07:54.40
archpodnet
Um, yeah.

07:59.68
Oona
Very very important in the country since the late eighteen hundreds. It's not a new thing like it is in in in North America it's It's been going on since you know our our sort of national sort of heroes and forefathers in the late eighteen hundreds that that eventually formed the the philippines as the nation I guess as a. A concept? Um, ah they were already doing that and indigenous peoples were a an important component of that. Basically exploiting um co-opting them co-opting their cultures. So yeah I know it's a lot to lot.

08:32.98
archpodnet
Um, yeah, no that that actually um, sounds in some ways more similar to what happened in Mexico from my understanding you know with basically.

08:46.22
Oona
Um, yes, yep.

08:46.37
archpodnet
Um, you know like the mexican revolution and trying to form this like mexican identity and really centering that around. Um you know Luterraza cosmiica and and um, this mix of cultures and indigenous cultures while at the same time indigenous people are are being discriminated against yeah, that's.

08:54.62
Oona
Ah.

09:00.52
Oona
Yep.

09:05.23
archpodnet
That's fascinating. Um, yeah, so oh sorry we gonna say meals did I cut you off there? Okay, okay for a second I they I thought I cut you off? Okay, um, okay so.

09:07.79
Oona
Yep yep, exactly? yeah.

09:13.66
Oona
No, no, no, that was it I could I could talk for hours about this. But yeah, no, no, no, no, no, no.

09:24.57
archpodnet
Thinking about all of that. Obviously you went into working with this this community without um, without even realizing you know that that they were there that they were indigenous and um so can you talk about? Um, you know the process when you started working with this community and. And um, maybe what some of your your learning moments were through that process of um, you know I mean kind of challenging. Um some of your what you were initially taught and things like that.

10:02.64
Oona
Oh well? Um, yeah, well first of all the the the community data I work with um the the group in general. Um they they are a um lumad group and the luma are the um, the indigenous non-muslims of of the south. Ah, and there are quite a few different lumad groups about 18 sort of major groups and then a lot of subgroups under that the group I work with is called the Higa Onun and um among the Higa onon There are many different subgroups. Ah. A lot of cultural variation and I work mostly with people in the eastern part of of Misamis Oriental Province so the Higa Onan lumad um yeah um ah well, um, there were a lot of sort of major learning or aha moments. Um. Along the way and a lot of it had to do with the prejudices and the biases that I grew up with and I I you know as as enlightened as I thought I was um ah being in the field and and actually meeting. People and getting to know them and listening to them and spending time with them I you know there was a lot of unlearning that I had to do as far as how I believed. Um, the world was.

11:27.99
archpodnet
A.

11:30.41
Oona
And so that was a very interesting experience for me. Um, and and um, ah there were a lot of things that I learned ah from just sort of listening and and in in the course of my work and and this is so this is again a very very long period. Um, first of all,, um, how the idea of assimilation. Um, versus um, not being assimilated how that's really a farce in terms of how people really live and present themselves on a daily basis. Um. 1 way I learned this was exploring people's um, life Histories individuals life and employment histories and um, ah when I was in the field. You know it was so tempting to look at the the different people I interviewed as sort of. Oh yeah, you know so they're this way the way that I see them Now. They're this way. Um, you know if they're they're doing traditional sort of upland farming they live in really really small settlements. Um, they live in these kinds of houses and that kind of stuff they have traditional gardens and.

12:40.70
Oona
And fish in the rivers and and and and live like you know, indigenous peoples you know in in a very romanticized sense but then talking to people some of them had actually done military service. Some of them had some of them had worked in the logging companies that um that their own people were. Um, got into trouble fighting some of them had joined the rebel movement um and fought to fight the logging companies that were there. Um, some of them had even gone to work in Saudi Arabia as migrant workers. You know, um, and so in the course of of you know any given adult's life. They had gone through these different um sorts of experiences that if you had caught them at any at a different time. You would say oh they're fully assimilated versus seeing them at a different time. Oh they're. Not really that assimilated. You know, um, and so that whole thing I realized was just a complete farce. Um, and um, yeah, another significant thing I learned was that there was a lot of meaningful contact between the ancestors of these these communities. And colonial figures in the spanish period and that's actually what my my book is about in 13 I was going to say my first book but I don't have another book out yet. It's still still working on it. So it's my only book right now. But um, that is basically the the subject of a mountain of difference.

14:08.29
Oona
Um, I went into the colonial archives in Spain and tried to find traces of of these communities and see what I could you know, just sort of pull out of of these archives and um that in combination with the oral traditions of theirs that I knew about um, you know and I came up with with a very interesting. History I mean interesting to me. Um, because it really blew up the whole idea that um that the people that we identify as indigenous minorities today as opposed to mainstream filipinos. That they were somehow isolated from the colonial experience that they somehow were not touched by it that they somehow did not have a colonial experience and that's why they're different so it really just sort of destroyed this not just dismantled but just sort of annihilated that that whole idea and again that was another sort of. Um, eye-opening experience for me and and um, that led to the realization and it's supported by their oral traditions which I've been studying more. That's ah my current sort of um ah research topic now or or part of it. Um. 1 thing I picked up on is that it's this contact actually with colonial figures that helped create what we identify as traditional cultures today among the lumad and I don't mean that it was like the key.

15:38.56
Oona
To traditional cultures today but that what we see as as traditional you know in in quotation marks traditional lumad cultures today. Um, which most filipinos perceive as being pre-colonial cultural traditions they're deepest traditions that that they that they hold to today were. Profoundly, um, influenced by this colonial contact and it's it's embedded in their oral oral traditions that's and and and so not only that but that their oral traditions. The oral traditions themselves emphasize. Change and innovation throughout their history as a people. That's what the the traditions are about and so um, so that basically turned my whole understanding of tradition and heritage completely upside down and inside out that to them. Their idea of heritage and tradition what counts to them as you know what's important to preserve is their history of innovation. The history of the changes that they made and these are the new things we did and that's how they remember their. You know, specific ancestors they like this ancestor is the person who introduced this new practice. This is a person who who came up with this new innovation and this is the person who you know who did this and who did that? Um, so their understanding of tradition and heritage.

17:11.99
Oona
Is completely different from um I Guess Mainstream Society's understanding of heritage and tradition which is about making sure things didn't change so much about preserving the past about you know, um, ah basically salvaging. Um, um, ah, salvaging sort of ancient things and and and making sure that they don't disappear. So It's like ah was completely different take that I did not expect going into it and but's I mean in terms of Aha moments. That's definitely those are definitely the the aha moments for me. Um, in terms of my my own work but to them of course it was not an aha moment. They're like yeah, so so that yeah, no I said that yeah not done and yeah I was it was. It was great because I was just you know, ah constantly just sort of.

17:59.32
archpodnet
Well, ah.

18:04.13
archpodnet
Yeah.

18:10.40
Oona
Being you know, ah constantly falling off my chair. You know when I talk to people because I'm just so surprised. Um, yeah, um.

18:16.10
archpodnet
Yeah, oh man. Okay, um, again, we're we're at our second break. Oh sorry, no, you do do have more that you want to? okay.

18:19.52
Oona
Yeah, so I'm I'm still trying to get it. You know? Yeah yeah, okay, no no, that's it. Yeah oh no I just said. Okay, yeah.

18:30.53
archpodnet
Ok, so we're at our second breakpoint um, think there maybe is yeah who's um, sorry editors. Okay.

18:35.52
Oona
The our breaking point.

18:43.74
Oona
Ah, we're at our breaking point now folks.

18:49.88
archpodnet
Ah, um, okay, so so we're at our second break point. But I really want to to keep diving into some of this. Um, when we get back. So everybody hold tight and we'll be back here in a second.

18:57.61
Oona
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