00:00.83 archpodnet All right? Okay, so we're back and I have a None and 1 questions to ask the 2 of you. Um, as per the usual and so but what I want to start with is you both touched on this a little bit and so I want to I want to dive a little bit deeper. 00:06.79 Antoinette Um, and. 00:20.64 archpodnet You mentioned some of the challenges um in working with black cemeteries. The research challenges and you mentioned a couple of different types of challenges already. So if if you could speak to that a little bit more and if there's any specific barriers. Ah, to learning about or preserving these sites that that we should all know about. 00:46.16 Delande The. 00:47.48 Antoinette Who who are you who do you want to go None 00:48.96 archpodnet ah sorry ah Dr. let's start with Dr Jackson since since it was the the black 7 network conversation that we were just coming from. 01:01.63 Antoinette Yeah, some ah some of the barriers and or some of the challenges I guess are research challenges that I've been finding or my team and I have found in terms of working with black cemeteries is none of all is easy to think or it's sometimes. Um, people think that their site their place is the only place or they're isolated and they there are no other people working on this or this is not as important as ah, you know as a as it is. Because it's a lot of isolation and a lot of and also a lot of attempts to really marginalize these kinds of often these types of stories or these types of issues and so thinking about Tampa and the stories that were coming out there. None of the challenges is how do we. I started looking around and realizing that yeah these are stories and these are issues that are not just particular to Tampa and why is that again this begs the question on a bigger bigger perspective. You know more systemic issues. Not only. Ah, in the south or not only in Florida but elsewhere that these questions and these you know black cemeteries are are going. You know Ah, but ah being abandoned race not talked about underrepresented in national conversations. So how do we. Bring these kinds of conversations together bring more people into the conversation. So the challenges challenge to me was how to have a create a space for people to share these stories that are various at a various kinds of ah connections to these stories. They could be. You know, ah a cemetery or associated with a church. It could be a cemetery you know that is associated with entire community with lots of resources or it could be. You know, very small family cemetery or something like that. So. How do we get all of those things and reasons. In conversation to create a sense of of connection and power power numbers power in in in in educating people on what these kinds of various kinds of circumstances are so one of the things that. That came out of the work we were doing particularly in Tampa was the the thinking about this thing we call the black cemetery network a space a digital or or a digital space where people can't I call it and we call it really. The front porch. 03:41.54 Delande You think. 03:42.97 Antoinette For other people working on kind of conversations elsewhere. So if you're working anywhere in the country anywhere in the world really and you want to you know you want to put your your cemetery or your your site in conversation with others. It's just just as easy as submitting that. To the the network and we've automated it now and created it. It made it easier even it's it's evolving so it's so it's a big giant porch or archival landscape where people can put their stories and enter things the way they want it and will. We'll put that out there for everybody to see and learn from so people submit their pictures. They submit their you know site history. We can work with them to to to add and you know whatever they need to add to the to the network and to follow up. So ah. You you know? So this became a platform and put a lot of different people in conversation and it's been so exciting to ah for us to watch it grow ah from when it launched one year ago in June till now launch which launched with about 13 sites and we worked with regional organizations like the african american cemetery coalition in North Carolina and we had the cemetery coalition right here in Tampa bay and those were some of the early people who put their cemetery sites on the network and and watching it grow to 60 sites. Now all around the country for I think it's far west right now we have as Texas and as far north as I think Nantucket is where we have somebody that has entered a site so it is so fun and. Ah, to see it grow and to have it become ah is alive as active database meaning again, people go out there and do research around those sites I just had a lady from None of the local universities call and ask me if her class her english class. Could use the black cemetery network to you know, do some kind of ah use their english writing learning skills and digital writing skills to help ah do things on the black cemetery network so they're going to pick a cemetery or 2 and really kind of. Drill down and tell some of the stories do some of the research around some of the people buried that they can find that are buried in the site and and write biographies and do some other kinds of creative ah presentations of that information. So it's actively. Ah. 06:19.89 Antoinette An Active site as well as a repository in some ways. So It's not stagnant and people do things from writing poems to like I said to posting things on on on social media based on what they've learned and found on the black Cemetery Network. So. And Network is ah ah is is very powerful in you know, connecting these stories and connecting people across the country which I think raises raises the temperature on what needs to be done in terms of the systemic nature of this problem like how do we get at. 06:48.56 Delande Are. 06:55.11 Antoinette Legislation and all those kinds of things but people have concrete stories concrete ways of seeing that this impacts people and families and communities all across the country and so the site gives more. Um. Power to those kind ofs conversations that people are having in the at the legislative level and the kind of work that again Archaeologists and by archeologists are sharing with us so people are even more engaged with the kind of information that comes out from other kinds of. Ah, entities as well and people doing work so it is it. It raises the level of the conversation to be more inclusive. 07:35.90 archpodnet Well, it sounds like you just put a challenge out there that we need to get some international sites in here. So so if you know of any sites andmer way but especially let's get some international ones in there I think that'd be really interesting. Um, so yeah. 07:39.66 Delande Um, yeah I love it a. 07:40.97 Antoinette Yeah I Sure did I Sure did I. 07:54.93 archpodnet Check out the website. Also they have a great Twitter account. Um, so if you're on Twitter sign up and and follow there as well. Um, but yeah, yeah, let's get let's get that 60 number up. Um, ok so yes. 08:08.35 Antoinette Um, yes, we yes we want. 08:14.42 archpodnet Um, so delande What about you? Um, what? Um, what research challenges have you have you faced in your work. 08:15.17 Antoinette Yeah, if. 08:24.27 Delande Research challenges. Well I think that um you know I think they for the research challenges I've confronted really fall with None categories of preservation and methods that I know that bitis will method so will cover them too much but even thinking with the in with with regard to preservation you would thinking of the black sema tur network. I'm so happy that some of the Dr Jackson is just taking on this this charge because of we've seen yes, hello. 08:44.19 archpodnet Hey Deland. Sorry Dr Jackson are you are you hearing him? Okay, okay, yeah, could you maybe? um. 08:56.40 Antoinette Yeah I hear he's a little low but I hear him. 09:00.53 Delande Okay I can try to let's edit that easy up put on. Let me see set. 09:07.38 archpodnet Yes, maybe try and like just speak a little louder or if there's a way to get closer to your microphone or something. 09:16.51 Delande Sure how is how is it now. 09:21.90 archpodnet That's better. 09:23.15 Delande Okay, this this is better. Okay, wonderful. Um, so I can just restart what I said um I was saying that um you know in terms of research challenges I Really see it within that I've confronted at least. 09:24.78 archpodnet In here. 09:40.40 Delande They really fall within None categories for me which are just preservation and methods and with regard to preservation I'm even thinking of the black cemetery network and I'm so happy that someone like Dr Jackson is taking on this charge because no, we've seen previous iterations that that somehow like fizzled out and essentially thinking about you know. Like not recreating the wheel and having people who are invested in this work. What will it take for an initiative like this like that. But the black cemety number is doing so successfully to maintain its its its presence and to maintain the work that it's doing I'm thinking of a former national endowment of the humanities initiative that kind of fell off. Ah. Fordham university went began began a catalog and and what does it say about the difficulty in in in in having one of these sorts of projects become a mainstay and and take on longevity and what is ah how does that a reflection of the ways that black histories are treated more broadly. Um and in terms of methods but well. Also. And we can think of this preservation in terms of you know whether it's cemetery records whether it's state records whether it's um, other community initiatives that are taking on this sort of challenge of preserving. Um, um, black burial grounds. You know who? ah what what what? materials do they have to work with to you know to to really invest in. Um. To to invest in these initiatives to taking on a sort of like life of their own as opposed to falling off whenever the love of the hype around the topic goes down if you will um in terms of methods. You know, ah, one way I try to frame it is um, you know if. For those who have always been treated in excess of the law and in excess of mainstream social life standards. How can we choose like it's never going to be possible to just stay within one realm of like thought or one one space of practice. We always. We will have to. go beyond or go or or still go. You know, get anticipative be in excess of disciplinary practices to approach how we study black life and death. Um, there's a sort of like you know nuance I hate using that word that needs to be um, ah assumed when approaching this topic. You know I think back to again. Dr Jackson has this great but ah framing of forensic ethnography and how do we bring in ethnographic practice into these typical investigations of crime and death. You know how do we expand upon like the typical. Scientific or or or or practical standards that we use to name these spaces or to locate these spaces and you know there are there are these other approaches I think of um, you know, digest ah along the on lines of where anthropology has turned in terms of like biocultural studies bringing together these 2 halves of the discipline. 12:22.76 Delande Um, if you will and just that these are the kinds of sort of like intersecting frames of thought that go beyond just like None typical practice or None typical standard that we need to really um, like you know as opposed to you know, starting in a in ah ah in ah in a typical archeological. Um approach now we need to start from. These intersecting and these these these these these multidisciplinary approaches this needs to be our beginning point for approaching these lives that are so you know that are erased in such complicated ways know spatially erased socially erased. You know, um, intellectually erased. So ah. These are these are the the challenges I've really ahcon confronting a lot of in my research, how do we most appropriately? ah articulate these lives that have been lost so violently. 13:12.29 Antoinette And and following up Delan I really like what you're saying about this the the the understanding of erasure I think we need to understand using the language of erasure. Ah. 13:27.45 Delande A and. 13:27.70 Antoinette Some people say stolen other people say marginalized and underrepresented showing that it's a challenge like these things were deliberately and actively in many cases done to ah black spaces and sacred sites. 13:40.34 Delande Um, and um. 13:42.42 Antoinette As opposed to when you use the word abandon and loss that people oftentimes say Abandon African-american cemeteries are lost as if people suddenly you know lost interest in their cemeteries and and just moved away and with no thought and and no responsibility and I know. Legally sometimes there is ah or technically sometimes from archeological standpoints. They're abandoned mean certain things. But when the general public hears The word abandon or lost they they kind of look at it as a blame kind of thing and I think it is appropriate for us to think about when we use a language. 14:07.51 Delande And. 14:13.77 Delande Um, yes. 14:20.81 Antoinette What we want people to come away with the challenge that we want them to have around what to do about these sites and what what can be done and how did they get there and how did the situation happen in the None place. So Yes I agree with you're saying we have to move it out of the maybe the academic or the archeological only or the anthropological sites ah perspective only and it look at it politically legally ethically these are these are the areas where you really move the ball finding. 14:44.35 Delande Um, yes, 0 14:52.37 Antoinette Um, with these black working working with black cemeteries is the legal and the political the political will that has to happen to get the the proper legislation to get the proper funding and you mentioned sustaining these kinds of projects and to do that You need these types of this type of recognition. 14:57.79 Delande Emma. 15:11.85 Antoinette And this type of ah ah, funding capacity aimed at a problem that was you know systemically created in many cases with respect to black Cemetery. So I think really I Really like the all the kinds of things you were saying about the import of of expanding. These kind of conversations outside of our maybe our particular fields. The other areas that we may not normally talk about. 15:37.98 Delande Thank you? Well that coming from you Dr Jackson I wow I really I can't but tell how much I grab into the oc and I'm so happy you write up language and back to plenty gra up but um, before too about you know the different sorts of expression. Um. 15:44.60 Antoinette Yeah. 15:53.97 Delande The the language that you really pushing how we're using and being so intentional for me has ah I'm thinking about but when you said abandon how that that that that in folkslk sort of blame. You know I worked at exhibition in between nineteen summer to 19 at American University where a doctoral candidate plans to prosper you and 1 of the 3 16:02.65 Antoinette Okay. 16:13.11 Delande Freeedmen towns who are now looking to who are working around the different instances of their black cemeteries being erased or or or harmed by the state or lack of state attention. You know one of the key issues. There were newspaper reports and and documentaries constantly using this these language this language around like. 16:30.12 Antoinette You. 16:32.63 Delande Why this lack of care is a reflection of the community as a reflect as opposed to a reflection of state violence Even if this state is ignoring. That's indirectly still in a position of State violence and you know what language does the community want to use to name this violence as well as. 16:38.29 Antoinette Is it. 16:50.99 Delande And what language can be used to appropriately translate it into political action I Really really think that language you know is something that it's up that it hasn't taken up the and the amount of space that it needs to I think there's so much more that needs to be like ah given attention to with how language plays a role in this work. 16:54.48 Antoinette Who. 17:10.23 Delande So thank you for pulling it out excuse me. 17:12.99 Antoinette Yeah, and I and know in the when we the state of Florida set up a task force to look into in the name of the task force it was it was assigned into law this task force h b 37 and 2021 to spend a year to study this issue of ah abandoned african-american cemeteries and one of the first and I was it was a 10 minute 10 member task force and I was one of the people on the task force and one of the none things our whole task force took up was to challenge this term abandon. 17:42.93 Delande Um, and more. 17:45.36 Antoinette African-american Cemetery so it was quite enlightening to have the public hearings and you know hear the discussions amongst ah panelists particularly people on the panel who were community members who were you know deeply invested. Because they had family members in some of these cemeteries that we were talking about and really challenging hearing them articulate the challenge of the like why the language needed to be expanded. 18:15.21 Delande Such important work. 18:16.70 archpodnet Um, yeah, sorry to want you go. 18:25.51 archpodnet Or ok, um, yeah, and we're we're again and we're already at our None break. Um I'm really really enjoying this conversation and I do just want to since we're talking about words. Um. Take a None to again ah make a point that we've made on on every episode that Dr. Jackson's been on. Um, but I think you know since we're talking about words um another um, important one that you brought up in the the none episode we did with you was just the difference between um slaves or enslaved people. So I just wanted to throw that one in again because I think um, it's really important and really easy to ah miss that one. But um, you know, just like abandoned versus erased I think it's essential. Um, so on that note, we're going to go to our second break. 19:12.44 Antoinette Ahead. 19:22.49 archpodnet But lots more to talk about when we come back.