00:00.45 archpodnet All right? and that's okay, little love little off. Sorry yeah, very excited to have you back on the show. Definitely. Dr. Jackson's always a fan favorite so very excited and also very excited to have Delanton Bell on the show. And really excited because this episode it's very cool. Um that we have an anthrop or anthropologist Jesus um, it's very It's very exciting because we're going to have a cultural anthropologist ethnographer on the show and delande. Um, well I'll let you introduce yourself in your background. 00:39.28 Delande Okay, thank you, Thank you? Thank you for having me today. Um I'm a but my name was Delan Justin Both as you've heard. Um I'm a biologically and archeologically trained anthropologist and my approach I bring together I attempt to bring together rather. Black studies, critical geography and um, cultural history to you know approach What I'm calling an anthropology of black remains ah through which I try to interrogate the various actual lives of slavery that continue to affect black life and death today. 01:11.90 archpodnet Yes, so I'm I'm so excited to talk to both of you today because lots of lots of different perspectives there from ethnographic cultural anthropology which as we all know is is um, my discipline. So it's a. 01:20.20 Antoinette Listen. 01:30.17 archpodnet I'm always excited when I get to have another cultural anthropologist on the show and then um, you know, biological and archeological backgrounds with Delan so I think it's really exciting to be able to touch on this topic. Um from from some different directions. So both of you to get us started would you tell me more tell us more about your work with black cemeteries and Dr Jackson let's start with you again. 02:04.21 Antoinette Yes, ah like like you probably know from reading some of my previous work my interest in general is the silence silences in national records and archives about black people underresp. Underrepresented communities and how to deal with that. How to address that and so my entree into black cemeteries came as a result of you know, starting to learn and hear more and more about erase back cemeteries in the Tampa Bay area as you know. 02:38.53 Delande Okay. 02:40.47 Antoinette Ah, probably know in the nineteen and 2019 and 2020 a rather large african american cemetery in the Tampa bay area zion cemetery was uncovered and discovered right in the middle of the city with no one knowing that that. That a housing complex was sitting on top of a cemetery and it was the Tampa Bay Times and Ray Reid a local historian who actually had been doing prior research on that and and kind of gave that a tip. And then the florida archeology network and cardinal and several other archeological firms actually did the gpr at the ground penetrating radar and confirmed that yes indeed there was a cemetery in which the housing complex robles park housing complex was sitting on top of. 03:22.33 Delande Well. 03:32.10 Antoinette And so this became and you know a national story but really a big local story and it really caught my attention ah about how how is it that you would just now be learning that there is a cemetery ah underneath a housing complex all of these years later and so that that piqued my interest and then at the same time. Ah, the University Of South Florida issued a call for proposals following a George Floyd murder and 2020 for you know, studying understanding blackness and addressing anti-black racism and one of the things was what can we do. That's important to the community. What kind of understandings and research can we do that would get at this question and involve something. That's but really pertinent to the community. So ah, marrying those 2 things together. Call for a proposal and then what was going on in the news right? at that time that the detention around finding a black cemetery underneath a housing complex I proposed a project that would look at that in more detail because I was hearing from the archeological perspective and and those perspectives I hadn't heard. From the living community perspective the impact that it was having on present-day peoples and communities and wanted to find out more in the present about what what it meant. So I put together a team and we started to do research specifically on zion cemetery and then 3 others. That actually had also surfaced in the St Petersburg area around the same time. So it was this pressure this this presence of this question of why are these black cemeteries ah being erased and have been erased and why aren't we why are we just finding out about it so that. Again, got into the things that I've already been questioning like underrepresented communities untold stories and now here we have this tension about erase black cemeteries right here in my community and something that you know the university had resources and ah wherewithal who you know help address. So that is how I actually got involved on a very particular project and then became more and more interested in what was going on in terms of the national conversation and how our story and issues within the Tampa Bay area with ah the zion cemetery and the 3 cemeteries in particular in St Petersburg which were under tropic kind of field parking lot which is a baseball stadium. How is that how can we? How can we? you know address this? What are why is this happening and so that was my entree into this discussion of black cemeteries and it's been since twenty twenty it's been full steam ahead since then. 06:19.16 Antoinette So I'll just leave off with that right now. But that's what that's how I entered the topic really more specifically in terms of erase flag cemeteries. 06:26.61 archpodnet Um, and deland what about you. 06:33.82 Delande Okay, so my entra I are train to studying box cemeteries. Let's see so believe it or not I actually began as a mediterraneanist um archeologist and expanding my methodology in skeletal research. I began to learn more about the histories of um of of biologic anthrop topology and bio archeology and these luacies of scientific racism and it was through that angle with through which I began looking more into you know there these intersections of um race racism anti-blackness and and anthropology. And I began to learn about the af burial ground in New York City and from there I kind of just completely switched my shifted my focus to this kind of more of this this present day of reality that um I which says I just found myself so much more? Um, ah personally attached to and personally compelled by. Um. And so which that led me to my current dissertation project which is on the georgetown which focus on the georgetown neighborhood of um of Washington d c where over these past job almost 2 decades whenever one of these ah I don't know now Multimillion dollar houses on this block. Um, do a home renovation project that goes below street level. Um, they happen upon remains and research to date has shown a likelihood of afhan ancestry and um qualitative studies of these remains and I'm hoping to do more research into what I'm attempting to do is find out. Who these individuals were and what what's what What's their relationship to the space of this site and also you know what? what it means for ah for 4 4 but you know black life and black death to go to these multiple levels of interlocking and overlapping erasure and then you know. How can we use these stories around death to rear artticulate narratives about life because I'm trying to push my work my own work in the field. Not just stop at the the doorsteps of death that um we have tuning narratives I've ever already. 08:37.25 archpodnet Um, yeah, okay, so I'm really fascinated by how you would look at something like that like what? um what methods and and starting with Deland um, just. Because biological anthropology is is more of a mystery to me. Um, let's be honest, um, could you talk a little bit more about um the the methods that you're planning on using um in in this specific work. 08:57.66 Antoinette Um. 08:59.98 Delande Um. 09:11.29 Delande Sure I'd be happy to um so bio Archcheologically speaking of you know with when hes excavating um a ah ah cemetery the the primary element of the you of the the go to is is these every human remains. Um. Wherein we look through these different instances of skeletal development that relate to that have that you know studies of shouldn't relate to likelihood of um where you are destin descended from geographically and other instances that show age at time of death other instances that show. Likelihood of what we perceive to be biological sex. But um, which happened across many all admits of the human of the human skeleton whether it be the cranium or the pelvis. But um, what I seeing is how these these ah these this form of study is so rooted in sort this up kind of like a. Essentialist um, form of like thinking of love of of research. It's always it's it's critically important to pair that with you know the material elements from theation as well. So you have the the coffin nails that could be um, you know, placed in sort of a chronological time. Period. Have other elements from material culture. You have thistiy which is a different layering in the burial ground but what I have found most critical um and it actually speaks to something Dr Jackson had mentioned in my research is when you read when you then turn to the archival elements of the archival data. It's not just looking through. You know, um, cemetery records or looking through census data or looking for you know narratives of the area that you were at that. Yeah that you're researching or even um, even historical maps specifically looking at who isn't present in those narratives who isn't present in that data. Sometimes can give you even more of an insight into into your project. So if I'm looking if I'm looking at a site that I think is in the none century you know across the 1800 s and looking at a historical map and I'm looking at these different you know plantation, owners names and no one else. I you know I then might have some inkling or some idea to go to their records and see what sort of um, ah, date that details on the enslaved peoples that they had in that property. You know, looking at certain ah mainstream institutional or state archives and finding out what sort of counter histories. You can tell from what isn't present and from there. None of my favorite if you can have a favorite aspect of this research are all histories and personal narratives. These are always without fail. It's always the narratives of the of of those most marginalized forcibly marginedized in the area black imp partial otherwise. 11:40.71 Antoinette She. 11:55.16 Delande Give me the most insight into the contents within I within which I work. So um, those are some of the that that was a lot I'm sorry that those are some of like the main approaches that begin biologically and archeologically but that always venture into the cultural and then the and then the narrative. 12:10.35 archpodnet Well, you are definitely preaching to the choir with this group with oral histories being the best. Ah um, ah we are not going to argue with you there. Um. 12:13.98 Antoinette Um, yes, yes, yeah, no. 12:18.21 Delande Um, the best the bad or is hands down. 12:25.97 Delande Yeah feel. 12:27.56 archpodnet Dr. Jackson what about you. 12:30.99 Antoinette Well none of all, yes, our none none and fourth oral history. So that that it that is a given. Ah and I think it brings up. Yeah I think it really brings up. Ah, one of the the core reasons for the kind of work that I do because when you think about so especially cemeteries and things like that people are always thinking. That's in the past that's old. That's how how do how do we connect with that. And None of the primary things that the work that I do around cemeteries bring to the forefront again is partly what I mentioned what was missing with the zion or what was a gap in some of the zion research was why is this important today like why is it important who is it important to today. How do we? link. 13:11.19 Delande Um. 13:17.31 Antoinette What what is being found today with these with our current and contemporary concerns and issues and that's ah the the approach using ethnography and and my team talking to current day people who are the people who are living in those housing in that housing complex over top of the cemetery. How. Does an understanding of of their relationship to that space today help us think about, um, you know, not only today but also in the past and how do we talk about people's connection with not knowing this history. Ah and what does that mean. And and and moving from the present back into how do these erasures happen. What's the significance of you know, erasing or forgetting about a black cemetery. How does that happen in the present. What does that mean to people today and so the work that I do tries to connect. You know people to the conversation through various methods one again as we already mentioned was you know doing oral histories with people who are contemporaryily contemporarily impacted by what's going on also maybe doing histories and having interviews with people who may have had family members. Ah, in some way shape or form connected to these sites. So how do we learn about these sites from the perspective of people who maybe have family or have other types of connections to these cemeteries and then how do we get people interested. And None of the other ways that the work that I do we engage with a multi multitude of communities multidisciplinary meaning not only the the bio arche bioareologists forensic anthropologists and you know a range of historians but also artists. 15:07.17 archpodnet A. 15:07.43 Delande 1 15:08.49 Antoinette And what I found most recently in this in this cemetery work that I've done was the connection that my project team has made with the art artistic community meaning we've engaged with spoken word poets ah and writers and they've actually taken. Ah, the materials that we as researchers as ethmographers and oral historians and other things have collected in creative creative works. How do you bring that alive and connect with people emotionally because this is a very intense and an emotional ah situation to be connected with. Ah, cemetery in in general. But how do you How do you tap into that emotion and how do you get people interested through those ah emotional kinds of connections. Beyond just the story on a page. So the the spoken word artist. The poets. And the writers have helped us do that to bring these archives and this materials that we ah as scientists regardless or historians Ethnographers Bio archeologists we're still considered you know more science so or more people who are academics. So how do you get out of that academic mode and engage with people. Where they are and in other kinds of ah domains especially around something as important as burials and and cemeteries and and honoring the dead because that has way more connections and and than just our our wrote. Research not that it's not important, but it also embodies so much. Ah, so many other things and at the time that a person's family buried them at these sites. They had some type of ritual probably in connection and and sendoff that we are. Ah, you know we need to acknowledge that sacredness of those grounds as well. So how do you do all that so that's one of the big pieces I think that I've learned and incorporated way more than I've done in any of my other research with this black cemetery projects have been these connections with. The creative community you know and and engaging with those kind of conversations and in addition to archival work genealogy genealogical work and historical work and ethnographic work. so those are the so I think that's one of the big things that that I want to. Bring to light this partnership that our project team has had and has with the artistic community and and and None more final thing is that and I haven't talked about the black cemetery network what that was an outgrowth of the project that I was talking about the african american burial ground project. 17:53.99 Antoinette That we started around in response the the the cemeteries are being found in Tampa but if you go out to the black cemetery network website. You'll see not only we we represent some of the work of the artist. The spoken word artist but the the website itself was deliberately created. By some of the creative folk on our team to to embody that the visual component so we really took that into account. How do you feel on the site. Not just a website. The website was created with that level of ah. Ah, intention around presentation and and you know creativity with the and respect for the dead in terms of just highlighting that and more more than just ah of. Basic website. So it's all part of the intentionality of the work we have been doing and we do with the black cemeteries on ah on our project team. 18:56.93 archpodnet Yeah, that's amazing and I am currently googling the black Cemetery network. Um it it looks like a really beautiful website. Um, so we will definitely have a link to that in the show notes and. 19:01.19 Antoinette Um, yeah. 19:16.21 archpodnet It's amazing. It's amazing. How quickly it goes but we are already at our None breakpoint and we will be back to talk more about this here in a minute. 19:18.52 Antoinette Here.