00:00.31 archpodnet Okay, and we're back from our break and I want to hear more about this position that you have it to you. You mentioned how it's such a good fit and I'm so glad that you're in that environment instead of a toxic one? Um, So can you tell us more about. What you do and what your current role looks like. 00:22.16 Kelly Yeah, so I am again in a tenure track position and so I mean as this assistant professor of anthropology. Um I also serve as the curator of ethnology for the University Of Denver Museum Of Anthropology which has been a very cool role to take on. But as the you know we we do have a master's program at do for anthropology in um, three different tracks. So we have museum anthropology cultural anthropology and archeology. Um, which is wonderful because I love being able to work with graduate students like the student that we know in common. Um. And one of the things that I really love about this position is that I get to teach the graduate theory class for anthropology in the fall. It's their first required class and part of the reason why I love that is because I've I've been really into. This idea of decanonizing anthropology and there is and a decanonizing syllabus that I will send you the link so you can add to the show notes but it is it was it was done by a group of graduate students and it is amazing. Um, and it basically. You know, asks us to think through as anthropologists why there are certain people who are considered part of the canon and and people who aren't so for example, obviously Margaret Mead and Ruth Benedict are people that if you're in anthropology you have read and know very well. Um. Part of that is because they were trained by Papa Frons right like by Franz Boaic at Columbia but paparonns also trained Zora Nee Hurston and Ella Deloria and so you know when we think about why certain voices are privileged over others I just think it's really interesting. Not to think about not just. 02:03.84 archpodnet Yeah, ah. 02:16.22 Kelly The the whole idea of decolonizing but decanonizing and really bringing in these voices of people who have been marginalized and ignored in anthropology for so long. Um, and so you know I just think having the ability to have master students to start. To start thinking about those issues from the beginning has been something that I've loved watching. Um and I also really love to ask students to to question everything I mean you would be surprised the number of graduate students who will say oh. Well I read this in undergrad but nobody ever told me to question it and I'm like how can you not question. Lewis Henry Morgan so um I just have I'm just kind of having a lot of fun. Um I don't know. 02:55.00 archpodnet The hair. 03:10.85 Kelly Teaching classes where I'm really asking students to think differently about our discipline and to think with a more critical eye about what we're doing and also how we're training students. 03:25.40 archpodnet Yeah, so okay, your dissertation it's on identity and um, that seems like it's It's really important also in your work with students that um that that's something that is a priority for you that. 03:32.50 Kelly Um, move on. 03:43.30 archpodnet Students of any identity feel. You know, comfortable and safe with you. Um, do you feel like there's like any sort of a connection there like anything you tuck from your dissertation and um have applied it in any sort of way to your work with students. 03:56.26 Kelly Um, I mean that's ah, that's a really interesting question but I don't necessarily think it has to do with my research I think it has more to do with my experiences as a student. Um I graduated with a class of 18 from this rural podunk school. 04:07.82 archpodnet Oh. 04:14.48 Kelly Um, from high school and so you know I was the only person I knew that ever went to school out of state and you know Duke is a really good school and when I got there, everybody was talking about all of their ap credits that were transferring and I had no idea what an ap credit was and so I I just. 04:30.55 archpodnet Yeah. 04:33.98 Kelly Remember feeling so out of place in that environment. Um, there were 2 other native students that I met but it was a very small native population at duke@thetime and I just felt really out of place I mean I called home a lot but especially that first year um 04:47.12 archpodnet Yeah. 04:50.44 Kelly I had decided I was gonna be a chemistry major because I loved it in high school I had a really great teacher. But you know if you've never had a lab before and suddenly you're taking chemistry with all the premeds at Duke um, that's a problem and so you know my first my first semester at Duke. Um. 05:00.52 archpodnet Right? right. 05:09.17 Kelly I mean I was valedictorian of my high school in my first semester of Duke I got a d plus in chemistry and it destroyed me and so I just felt really I mean now I know the term is academically underprepared but at the time I just felt dumb. Um, and so I I feel like the whole idea around imposter syndrome I know. 05:14.45 archpodnet Yeah. 05:27.83 Kelly You know people have different issues with that. But it's the closest thing that I have to sort of naming what I was feeling at the time and so I really try really hard to make sure that students who are in my classes feel comfortable sharing if they want to um, feel comfortable with who they are. And feel comfortable. You know, bringing in their perspective into the classroom because I think you know it's only when we're faced with difference that we really learn and I and I do think that a lot of learning comes through being uncomfortable and so I really try to encourage students to be okay with being uncomfortable. Be okay with silence be okay with the kinds of things that in you know in the United States we aren't necessarily comfortable with a lot. Um, so you know I just I really hope that that students are able to bring their full selves to our classes and. 06:12.30 archpodnet Right. 06:23.87 Kelly You know, really be open to to learning while when they do that. 06:29.87 archpodnet Yeah, and I mean obviously like it's working I mean because the student we know in Common. Um, you know their reaction was I want to take every single class that Dr Fayard teaches I Want to you know?? um you know So there's. They're clearly feeling um, safe and excited to learn with you? Um, so and hi if you're listening um so is there something like you know, Obviously there's a lot of other professors that listen to this podcast as Well. Um, is there anything. 06:59.21 Kelly Um. 07:08.27 archpodnet Like any tangible examples of of what that could look like that you do in your classroom or your office hours or things like that to make sure people are feeling as safe and included as they can. 07:22.45 Kelly Yeah I mean one of the things that I really like to do especially at the beginning of a class I feel like we'll have a lot of you know the kind of hot topics that people have really strong opinions about and the first is just to acknowledge that you know. All the things that we take for granted is natural and the things that you know people do tend to get really? Um, you know passionate about are all social constructs. So you know when we think about gender or sexuality or religion or race or ah, you know any of the kind of. Things that people just can get can get really upset about like we talk about all those things in anthropology. Um, so the first thing is just to say like yeah yeah, exactly and so the first thing is just to acknowledge that these are kind of talk through what that means like it doesn't mean they aren't real. 08:05.12 archpodnet Right? politics. 08:17.22 archpodnet A. 08:19.30 Kelly Doesn't mean that there aren't real world implications but it doesn't mean that they're not natural it doesn mean that there isn't a natural category for these things and that people around the world think about them really differently. Um, and so to really you know emphasize that but then also something that I have. 08:22.25 archpodnet Prayer. 08:38.64 Kelly Figured out really helps students feel more comfortable is that on the first day of class. We build a list of classroom agreements and um, you know we we listen to each other and you know one of the things that I always want to say is that I'm going to assume that you have good intentions. Um. Because even even in a class on this called Native North america the first day of class people don't know what to say? can we say indian do we say native american. Do we say indigenous? Do we say first nations. 09:03.24 archpodnet Ah, yeah, right. 09:10.78 Kelly There's all of these nerves around like I don't want to mess up and so I'm not gonna say anything because I don't really know how to name what I'm trying to say and so when I say to students like I'm gonna assume good intentions on your side and so what I need from you is that if you say something that. 09:16.80 archpodnet A. 09:30.56 Kelly I'm not gonna get mad if you say if you mess up but what I'm gonna do is correct you and I need you to be to hearing that and if you kind of talk about in the beginning I find that students are much more willing to. 09:31.39 archpodnet Um, yeah. 09:44.37 Kelly Sort of be less defensive I mean anytime somebody is correcting you your automatic reaction. My automatic reaction is to get defensive. But if you're able to sort of skip that action. Take a deep breath and then try to hear what somebody is saying to you. That's. 09:47.35 archpodnet Nay. 09:51.29 archpodnet Right. 10:01.75 Kelly This is what we spend our whole first class talking about is I'm gonna assume good intentions on your part. Um I need you to hear me if I'm trying to help you understand something a little bit better and try not to get defensive if you need to take some time and step out of the class because you are feeling defensive. Go for it. 10:17.91 archpodnet A. 10:19.65 Kelly You know, basically do what you need to do to get to a place where you're gonna be able to hear what we're talking about in class. Um, so we spent a lot of time just kind of coming up with different agreements around. Okay I'm gonna listen to you before I respond and let you finish your statement right? and so just just you know. 10:23.69 archpodnet Um, right. 10:34.34 archpodnet I have. 10:38.49 Kelly Making students aware of the way in which the classroom is gonna operate even when we are in a debate about something even when we don't agree on something I think it helps them to know that I'm not gonna be judging them I'm just trying to help them learn more and. 10:52.53 archpodnet Alright. 10:56.29 Kelly I'm going to do that in a way that is a gentle as possible and that it's not going to be a situation where that they canceled like nobody is going to call you a racist if you accidentally use the wrong word. Um, we're going to just talk about it as a class and maybe talk about like the history of a particular term. 10:57.46 archpodnet Um, right, right? right. 11:11.73 archpodnet Um, right, right? right. 11:13.36 Kelly But I'm not gonna think of you any differently because you messed up 1 time. Um, so that's something that I think has been instrumental in not only making students feel like our classes are a place where they can make mistakes but also. Just by having these conversations I find that students are much more willing to participate even if they tend to be a more shy student generally um, they participate more just by having these sort of classroom agreements laid out so that they understand and and know what. 11:38.92 archpodnet Right. 11:47.43 Kelly What the stakes are. 11:48.80 archpodnet Yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Um, sorry I was just listening to you and and not thinking of where I want to go with that next? Um, yeah because I do think that's a really good idea. Um, we do that for a lot of other things but not in Classrooms. Um. 12:11.14 Kelly Right? right? I mean I learned that from like nonprofit work right? like people sort of build. Um, you know rules or discussion guides or you know sort of agreements that um. I Mean you just see it happen in other places but not in the classroom and I just think it's such a good tool to use there to make people feel like it's okay to make mistakes. It's okay to have a different opinion. Um, and that's that's how we learn. 12:30.70 archpodnet E a. 12:38.57 archpodnet Right? Yeah, you're here to learn so you have to be um, open to learning but then like I'm going to do it in a way that makes you feel safe in continuing with that learning. Um. 12:53.57 Kelly Yeah, and I I Also think it's important to model these sorts of things too and so I definitely I had a class ah the first year I was here I taught this indigenous feminisms class and it's a class I Really love to teach but the students kind of had. 12:57.36 archpodnet Right? right. 13:13.54 Kelly Ah, moment in the middle in the middle of the quarter where they were like this is too much rating and you know I mean my first instinct was to like snap back like well you're graduate students so you need to get with the program right? But you know I listen to them and. 13:16.40 archpodnet Ah. 13:31.45 Kelly I Mean it took a lot to kind of sit there and take it and then recognize like you know what? I think you're right I'm going to think about how we can restructure the syllabus. Um, and when we come when we meet again we can. We can talk more about this but I'll have I'll have some plans. 13:34.25 archpodnet Right. 13:50.48 Kelly And so I did that and the the um the evaluations I got for that class. My chair still reminds me like you know they said that class changed their lives I you know I think I I think part of it is just because. 13:59.50 archpodnet Oh that's awesome. 14:05.95 Kelly I was able and it was hard I'm not going to say it was easy like it upset me for days but in the moment I was really able to not react in a defensive way and um I think that really made all the difference. 14:08.95 archpodnet Um, yeah. 14:16.39 archpodnet Right? Well and that's just such a huge life skill I mean we're talking about like you know the canon and all of these things which is really important but also like just knowing how to um, you know, receive criticism and know that it's not about you and that it's just really about bettering the work and the the situation. 14:34.72 Kelly Rounds Yeah know yeah and and I think also you know, um I have encountered people who are professors who. 14:36.36 archpodnet Like that's a really important life skill that we don't get enough of. 14:51.70 Kelly Just automatically think that they know better than the students and I just don't have that attitude you know like I've learned from my students every single quarter and I feel like they bring a perspective to things that is always energizing to me because at this point I'm getting pretty old and it's fun that. 14:52.00 archpodnet Right? yeah. 15:09.37 Kelly They're still very young and um, you know have new ideas and have different ways of thinking about things and um, you know I'm not afraid to make mistakes in front of them and I'm also not afraid to tell them that that I'm wrong about something or that I don't know and I feel like that was not necessarily my experience. Um, in. 15:21.80 archpodnet A. 15:28.99 Kelly In graduate school in particular and so I just you know I just want to try to be everything that I didn't have if that makes sense. Um I want to try to be the kind of professor that people do want to confide in and and feel safe around as opposed to feeling like um. 15:34.86 archpodnet A. 15:48.51 Kelly I'm always going to be the one who is putting them down or telling them that I know better if that makes sense. 15:52.85 archpodnet Yeah, is there something that you feel like you know you're hearing from your students and you're like oh that's interesting like any any sort of patterns or um, things that you've noticed. 16:12.78 Kelly Besides current um colloquialisms from the youngsters like that is my favorite thing about teaching younger people is that I never feel like I'm out of touch with like the current trends on language use. Um, so I really appreciate that. But that's more of a fun thing. Um, I do think that the students that I work with are more willing to be critical of the discipline in ways that I'm interested in. Um, you know I feel like if you were following the whole fiasco around the president of the aaa president Gupta's apology to indigenous people or. His Aaa Presidential Address you know that there was a visceral reaction from older older anthropologists and you know that is really troublesome to me because I feel like this is a ah discipline that. Prides itself on its self-relexivity and its move away from its colonial beginnings and things like that. But I think we have to be like realistic. Okay I think that there are still those people around I I think that they are very vocal. Um, and so for me I just really appreciate. When students come in with this critical eye towards the discipline and who are ready to really sink their teeth into the theories and figure out. You know what we can use and what we need to leave behind. 17:36.00 archpodnet Yeah, yeah, well between your teaching and your museum work. Um, what are some things that you think should be carried on and and what do you think needs to be left behind. 17:55.75 Kelly I Mean that is an exhausting question for me because I have so many examples of people saying really wild things to me. Um people who are anthropologists people who are I. 18:05.30 archpodnet Yeah, should should I maybe reframe that to um, you know, like what you're excited about in the future like a little less. Ah, ah trauma. 18:13.49 Kelly Yeah, well I just I just feel like we're a discipline that loves to Pat ourselves on the back and I just feel like it's too early. Um, you know I feel like there were people who were in my cohort who um. 18:21.54 archpodnet Yeah, oh. 18:33.60 Kelly You know would cuss me out in graduate school because I was involved in the repatriation efforts from the museum of anthropology at the university of Michigan which was you know one of the worst cases of I mean I'm going to call it nacra fraud I don't even know if that's a thing but um, you know it was one of the worst cases of. Museum professionals deciding that something was culturally unidentifiable just so they didn't have to return it and you know those kind of those kinds of things where you know this is not that long ago and the people that I was being trained with were in support of these. 18:57.10 archpodnet O. 19:10.12 Kelly Really terrible practices and so you know I think that it's just too early to start saying like we're a different discipline or we've changed I mean yes, there has been some change but I also feel like there is so far to go as a discipline. Um. 19:10.51 archpodnet Me. 19:25.65 Kelly Until we get to a place where I feel comfortable saying like okay now we can pat ourselves on the back now we can feel better about what we're doing. 19:34.19 archpodnet And um, well I guess we're we're right at the end. Um I guess I'll leave that question then for another day but um, is there anything else that you want to. 19:45.65 Kelly Um, so. 19:50.15 archpodnet Get across to our listeners like anything that you are hoping to say that you didn't get to um, any last thoughts. 19:58.10 Kelly Ah, no I don't think so I just I Really appreciate this conversation and I've had a really nice time chatting with you and I I thank you so much for asking me to be on the show. 20:08.41 archpodnet Yeah I it's never enough time. It's like you would think an hour would be enough time but it's never enough time. Um, so yeah I really enjoy talking to you. Hopefully we'll get to do it again sometime. And yeah, just thank you. 20:12.99 Kelly Um, yeah. 20:26.16 archpodnet So much for for taking so much time and obviously for making students feel so welcome and and included and excited about learning so seeing that firsthand like I was telling Dr Carol the other day when we recorded his episode. You know I think there's only been. 3 professors who have been referred to me by their students and you're 2 of those 3 so um so I think that says a lot. So thank you. 20:55.22 Kelly Yeah, thanks.