00:00.00 archpodnet Okay, so we're back from our break and Kelly and I were just having a really interesting conversation I couldn't help myself I had to keep asking questions about identity during the break and Kelly you were telling me a little bit about how some of the identity issues. A little bit different from for your tribe because I was asking about. Um you know groups of people where there was a connection in their family and then that connection was severed because of you know, boarding schools or um, urban relocation or ah, you know them being put in foster care. Um, all sorts of different situations. Um, having to flee from um violence like in Guatemala for example and and people then trying to come back and reconnect to roots that more like you know are only you know a generation off. Um, as opposed to the whole like trying to create an indigenous identity and then um you had some some interesting things to say about how porch was a little bit different in that situation. So would you mind telling our audience about that. 01:11.60 Kelly Yeah, so I was just saying that. Um you know porch is a little bit different just because we weren't federally recognized until the fall the announcement was made in the fall of 1983 but it didn't become official until 1984 and so because of that. Um, a lot of the compulsory boarding school or Assimilationalist projects that were happening to other tribes. They didn't really hit porch in the same way because they were kind of an unknown community until around the 1930 s and in the 1930 s 1 of the episcopal priests from the the neighboring town of atmore wrote to the bishop of Alabama and said we have a quote unchurched and unschooled population. You know rights outside of of Alabama are right outside of atmore. And I think that you need to send some missionaries here to you know help with that and so it really wasn't until the 1930 s that there's any record of porch um sort of existing because I mean. In the eighteen hundreds there was because porch citizens got land grants from the government. Um in the eighteen hundreds for serving as as wilderness guides and things like that. So there was kind of there were some there are a couple of acts of congress. Actually that were. That were done in the late eighteen hundreds to give those land tracks to certain individuals but there wasn't really sort of ah, an acknowledgement the porch existed as you know like a quote unquote indian community until after the 1930 s hold on I'm about to cough. 02:58.92 archpodnet Um, yeah, nice. 03:03.42 Kelly Okay, sorry about that. 03:05.69 archpodnet No wories wait. So okay, please forgive me if this is a stupid question but again I work in the southwest. So I mean from what I understand porch is the only federally recognized tribe in Alabama is that correct. 03:09.68 Kelly Um, but yeah, go ahead. 03:24.33 Kelly That is correct. 03:25.37 archpodnet Okay, so how does that happen that like there's a state and there's not like a single federally recognized tribe within it. 03:36.85 Kelly Well because Andrew Jackson tried to remove everybody right? And so I mean that's the reason why there are pockets of communities in in the southeast but not as many as you might think because I mean Andrew Jackson was trying to really remove everybody. 03:40.24 archpodnet Right? okay. 03:54.91 archpodnet Right. 03:56.63 Kelly And so you have the Mississippi Choctaw you have the eastern ban of cherokee you have the Florida Seminoles right like you have these pockets of of indian communities in the southeast I mean you have the lumbies in North Carolina too right? And so um, where there were just you know opportunities when removal happened. 04:00.45 archpodnet We hear. 04:06.70 archpodnet Right. 04:16.55 Kelly For individuals to run away to stay in some capacity and so what happened in porch is that there were individuals who were offered land grants and folks who had kind of avoided being removed sort of gathered together where where those land grants were and that's how the porch community. Um. 04:27.16 archpodnet Here. 04:35.95 archpodnet Okay. 04:36.12 Kelly And it up where it is. It's how um the the port community sort of thrived after Removal was because you know a lot of different creek individuals ended up there after Removal happened. 04:49.18 archpodnet Ah, okay, Wow. Okay, so is this um, were these land grants still on traditional porch land or was it a bit of a shift there. 05:03.59 Kelly No it. It was still on traditional porch land and um, you know it it was around these areas that were important because they had major waterways that people had used for. You know thousands of years to trade and those sorts of things and so it was what what porch people call he a pailla but it's the head of the perdido river um, and that was where one of the the set settlements of porch sort of started was there. 05:39.16 archpodnet Ah, okay, okay, so sorry I took us kind of way away from the original topic which was your dissertation because I got real excited about things we were talking about but I want to go back and. Were talking about these these were the patterns that you were seeing at Porch you know the before casino after Casino. Um, and what did when you looked at all of that in your thesis. Um or your dissertation. Sorry what? um. 06:04.74 Kelly Right. 06:14.59 archpodnet What conclusions did you reach or um, what did you take away from that whole experience. 06:21.68 Kelly Well I Think what? what I really took away was that um people who had grown up in the community who had experienced any kind of discrimination because of being in from that community. Those were the folks that were like the real ones you know like that's how people from the community felt about about folks who were from there and who were raised there even if they didn't meet that legal definition of citizenship. Um, and I think people were just you know I think now people are are. 06:42.70 archpodnet They. 07:00.53 Kelly Becoming more accepting of those after-casino folks. But I think it took a long time and I think that you know it had to take a lot of healing from the individuals who had been on the receiving end of a lot of that discrimination. Um, just because you know some of the people who were new and joining were. Part of the faction that was doing that you know causing that trauma. Um, so yeah I think and I and I do think I mean that was in Ninety Ninety nine when I was doing this field work. But I do think that you know people. 07:23.51 archpodnet Right. 07:37.43 Kelly Ninety Ninety Nine I'm sorry 2009 it was in 2009 I was like wait a second I hadn't been in high school yet. No no, it was in it was in 2009 when I was doing that work and you know I think things have really changed since then um, just because people are becoming more immersed into the community. Even if they weren't before. 07:39.58 archpodnet I was like Wow. Ah. 07:57.24 Kelly Um, and I think that when you're showing a real interest in learning about the culture and the history and becoming involved in community projects and you know there's so many opportunities at Porch now to to learn about culture to take language classes to you know, take a. Ah, creek hymn class and those sorts of things that you know, newer folks are becoming involved in and I think when they show that kind of interest in real dedication to the community I think that's when people start recognizing. Okay this is this is somebody who really cares about this community and isn't just interested in some economic. 08:34.36 archpodnet You know? so you mentioned hymns and I remember yeah when I was researching looking around for this interview. Um, you mentioned somewhere about how. 08:35.61 Kelly And if it. 08:52.84 archpodnet You know, being in this larger state of Alabama um, you know, really deeply religious part of the us that that had really influenced porch identity as well. Could you talk a little bit more about that aspect. 09:07.14 Kelly Yeah, absolutely. Um so what's interesting is that I was telling you this story about the local episcopal priests sort of reaching out saying they need ah a missionary to the porch community and the episcopalians were the first religious. Um, denomination to to show up and immediately built a couple churches a school the Porch Creek indian consolidated school was the first school that was built in the community for all students to be able to attend. Um, and so. You know the episcopalalians really did a lot of work to to help the community in terms of schooling in terms of providing clothes and and food and things like that in the community and the Episcopal Church was also the the reason why. Ah, reservation was able to be established because they donated the land that that part of the current reservation kind of presides over and so there were a lot of things that the Episcopal Church was sort of doing and helping out the community like in the early 1930 s and 1940 s. 10:07.54 archpodnet Hoa. 10:21.46 Kelly Um, then in the 1950 s a lot more kind of evangelical denominations start moving in and so I was saying earlier that Tony Paredes had done all of these interviews with various people and a lot of them were local religious leaders who were who were porch citizens or porch community members. Um, but who also were leading these evangelical pentecostal holiness type churches and so now on the reservation there are you know a lot of different churches and one of the things that I argue in my dissertation is that that is one of the ways in which people. Um, understand their porch creek identity is by going and attending an indian church on the reservation. So I grew up going to Saint Anne as Episcopal which is a part of the reservation and it's the the reason why or is it's the it's the church that donated the land in the very beginning. But also there were episcopal missionaries and episcopal teachers who encouraged porch community members to seek out federal recognition in the nineteen in the 1960 s and so Calvin Mcgee who was our chief started going to organizations and. Trying to find out what he could and the community would you know have big big fundraisers to be able to send him to Washington and send him to montgomery to be able to advocate on behalf of the porsche community and um, you know he started doing that in the nineteen fifty s and 1960 s and. Wasn't until the 1980 s that we got federally recognized and that was after he had passed so there was just a lot of and a lot of a lot of the support that he got was from the churches like ah you know putting on these fundraisers and helping him get the money to travel to be able to. To speak on behalf of porch. Um, he was at that big meeting in Chicago that sold tax organized and actually took the demands from that that Chicago indian meeting to Dc. So we have pictures of of Calvin Mcgee with with John F Kennedy when he was president. So. There's a lot of sort of interesting history that goes along with like the religion the way in which religion plays into that the other thing that I think is really interesting is that George Wallace loved Calvin Mcgee and it's just so interesting because we have these pictures of George Wallace with his hand around. Um. Chief mcgee shoulders. He referred to the porsche community as quote unquote his indians and I think that's really interesting to think about right because here he is the governor of Alabama who is very openly racist and is you know trying to block. 13:09.46 Kelly Um, black students from attending the University of Alabama at the same Time. He's really excited to take pictures with and um, you know, sort of have photo ops with with Chief mcgee. Um, and so I think it's just something interesting to think about and I know this is kind of off topic from your question but I I just wanted to put that in there because I am. Constantly fascinated by this. 13:29.74 archpodnet Yeah, that's crazy that is very unexpected coming from Wallace um, yeah. 13:37.54 Kelly What? Yeah yes, it really is and this is something else that I talk about in my research is this you know is that in these photos. Chief Mcgee is always wearing like a plain style warp on it and. Um, you know I I have been I thought about this a lot and I do think that it has a lot to do with the fact that at the time in the 1950 s and 1960 s the way that people could be identified as indian was to dress like a hollywood indian right with a war bonnet with. 14:11.51 archpodnet Right. 14:15.60 Kelly Um, you know Buckskin clothes like those sorts of things weren't necessarily things that creep folks did ever but in order to be read as a native person. There were certain expectations I think that the larger society had for. For people to sort of enact in order to be recognized as Legitimately native. 14:38.44 archpodnet Um, so okay, so you you do this dissertation. Ah on Porch identity and you know. 14:52.28 Kelly Um. 14:55.70 archpodnet Which which like you said wasn't necessarily like where you originally intended to be working but the casino came up and that's that's what people in the community were really interested in. So so then how do you decide where to go from there. 15:07.37 Kelly Rice. 15:14.27 Kelly Um, good question I sort of I think I was I I realized that I really do enjoy teaching and mentoring students and so. I Got my first tenure track job at this small liberal Arts college and joined a joint sociology and anthropology department and I feel like I don't want to say I'm a troublemaker. But I do feel like it is really hard for me to keep my mouth shut when I see something that I don't think is right? So um, you know I I had a series of incidents that happened not just at this job. But when I was in graduate school as Well. That I felt like were not ethical or just didn't live up to kind of expectations that I had for an institution that I was associated with and so. 16:14.37 archpodnet Me. 16:27.27 Kelly Have bounced around a little bit because I have a really hard time not sort of naming inequality or racism or sexism or homophobia in the spaces that I'm operating in and When. Chief Diversity officer of this college who is a white male biologist told me that yeah he told me that there had there had been a faculty meeting where um, a psychology professor had used the terms racially. 16:49.61 archpodnet U Ah ha. 17:05.76 archpodnet Okay, oh aha right? right. 17:06.17 Kelly Underrepresented and academically underprepared as if they were the same thing um to which I said this is incredibly racist I get like any people tell this room to is like yeah does it's racist right? Um, but he plumed this. The the Chief diversity officer pointed his finger in my face and told me I didn't know what I was talking about and so I was just kind of like okay I got to get out of here. You know like um so I I did that then I ended up applying for a non academicademic job where I was at. 17:27.68 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 17:41.38 Kelly I was the director of the native American Cultural Center at yale university as well as one of the assistant deans there in yale college and I really enjoyed that because I felt like I was able to work on the kind of programming that I went into and the students were amazing and I thought it was great. But after 4 years there I kind of felt the pull to try to finish this book and that wasn't gonna happen unless I went back to an academic position where I could devote at least part of my time towards research so that is how I ended up as. Ah, an assistant professor once again at the University Of Denver and I have to tell you that I don't know if you have a lot of grad student listeners. But when I left that first tenure track job. Okay, great because when I when I left that first tenure track. Everybody told me that I would never get another one. You know it was like this. 18:24.67 archpodnet We do for sure. 18:36.17 Kelly I Had you know crossed some line and it was taboo to even consider leaving a job because you weren't happier because it was a toxic place. Um, and I'm here to say that I got ah a tenure track job after leaving one and I think this. 18:44.16 archpodnet Um. 18:54.89 Kelly The place for me because you know it's so difficult in anthropology to find people who have the same values as you and so when I was doing my job interview the chair of my department Christina Kreps was giving me the tour of the museum of anthropology here at the University Of Denver and she said. And over here. We have our nag per cabinets and when we have a renovation. We're just hoping we don't need those because we're hoping that we get everything back to where it belongs and that was the first time ever ever heard. Anybody who was a director of museum say anything like that to to acknowledge. 19:20.39 archpodnet Yes. 19:33.90 Kelly That this shouldn't be here in the first place and I absolutely want this to be back where it belongs like that was the first time I ever heard anything like that and I feel like my department now because the University Of Denver has this really messed up legacy with. In regard to the Sand Creek massacre um there is such different perspective on indigenous issues here. People not just people who work on indigenous issues. But you know a lot of people around the university are super interested in. 19:52.56 archpodnet Yeah. 20:10.36 Kelly Promoting and just being supportive of indigenous initiatives as well as indigenous students and and especially indigenous faculty as well. 20:19.70 archpodnet Um, yeah, um, sorry I was like thinking about what you're saying and then now I'm like wait. What do I want to ask now. Um, okay, well for. 20:33.10 Kelly This. 20:37.21 archpodnet We're going to be at a break here for a second sorry editors you're going to edit all of what I just said out. Um, yeah, so first I want to say like I really I feel like we need to have another word other than troublemaker because you know that was definitely like a. Um, what was it that I think it was John Lewis said like that you should get into good trouble right? Um I think I feel like that is such a positive thing that you were doing but it's like getting described described in such a negative way. But um, yeah, so definitely. 20:58.67 Kelly Um, yes, yes. 21:07.90 Kelly well well I feel yeah I feel like um, the people that I worked with would definitely call me a troublemaker but I mean the thing is is that my my advisor when he writes me letters. Um, he says. You know Kelly I tell them that you tell the truth and you know I think of it as truthtelling but I think other people think of it as trouble making. 21:26.20 archpodnet A. 21:33.92 archpodnet Ah, yeah, well yeah I mean people don't like um to be made uncomfortable right? and ah in order for things to change and improve people have to be uncomfortable. Um, so yeah, so it's easier to to call you a troublemaker than face. 21:41.52 Kelly Um, you know? Yeah. F. Yeah. 21:53.10 archpodnet What's happening. Um, but on that note on our good trouble note. Um, we're going to go to our next break. Um, and then we have lots to keep going with. Um when we come back. 21:54.37 Kelly Yeah, Or. Um, even.