00:00.00 archpodnet Welcome to heritage voices episode 66 I'm Jessica aquinto and I'm your host and today we are talking about porch identity before we begin I'd like to honor and acknowledge that the lands I'm recording on today are part of the nooch or people's treaty lands the danta. And the ancestral pueblo in Homeland today we have Dr Kelly Faard on the show Dr. faard is an assistant professor of anthropology sorry I'm gonna re do that that sounded real chapy. Okay today we have Dr Kelly Fa art on the show. Dr. Fayard is an assistant professor of anthropology at the University Of Denver she earned her b a in cultural anthropology and religion from Duke University and a certificate in museum studies as well as an m a and ph d in anthropology from the university of Michigan. Her research deals primarily with the porch band of Creek Indians in Southern Alabama where she is an enrolled citizen. She is currently working on a book manuscript entitled fighting to belong race kinship and community among the porch band of Creek Indians that examines the methods and actions the Porch Creek use define themselves as creek given the stereotypes and assumptions about what it means to claim an indian identity. So welcome to the show. Kelly. 01:21.84 Kelly Yeah, thank you so much for having me I'm really excited to be here. 01:25.49 archpodnet Yes, I am so excited to have you I I haven't gotten this much of a rave review for a podcast in a while your student who who we both know was so excited for me to have you on. So I am very excited to have you on after after hearing all of the the good things from Them. So excited to have you? Yeah so let's get started with. 01:50.40 Kelly Thank you. 01:56.89 archpodnet What got you into this field. What got you interested excited about this type of work. 02:02.74 Kelly So um I grew up in and around the porch creek community and from when I was really tiny. There was always an anthropologist at our like our major tribal events. Um his name is Jay. Anthony Paredes he was an anthropologist who was trained in the 1950 s at the University Of New Mexico did his dissertation field work. Ah in in I think so like around Minnesota with ojibwe folks and then he got a ah tenure track job down in Florida and we happened to be the closest tribal community. Um. To where he was working and so he started coming around and was really instrumental in helping us get federal recognition and things like that. So when I was when I was younger I mean he was just a part of the community all the time. Um, so. As an undergraduate I took a class with my advisor at the time Orrin starn called native north america and I decided for my final research paper I was going to write about porch I knew that there were some articles and book chapters that he had published and produced and so I was super excited about that. And I started reading them and got really upset because I felt like the porch community that I was seeing was not being represented in the kinds of writings that he was he was doing um, so I you know was kind of outraged in only the way that a young undergraduate can be and. Ah, went to my advisor and I said you know what can I do about this? um and he said well you know if you want to write it back and have people listen to you. You really need a ph d in anthropology and I said well what about native studies and he said mm anthropologists. Don't really read. Native studies which I think has changed a lot since this conversation but at the time I think what was really true. Um, so I was like all right then I'm going to hit a ph d in anthropology and so I sometimes call it a spike ph d because it was really only about sort of being able to write. Back? Um, against the things that Tony had written about us. Um, and it you know it's kind of been difficult because he was so beloved in our community and I remember um when I got my first 10 n-year track job. He wrote to me it was right after I diffed my dissertation and he wanted a copy of it. And you know the introduction had a lot of critiques of his work and I was you know suddenly very embarrassed to send that to him but I did and I you know wrote this long note that was basically like I respect what you've done but you know we're coming from very different places with. 04:52.30 Kelly The way that we're thinking about anthropology. Um, and so you know basically no offense but you know and you know he was. He was so gracious I mean he wrote back and he was like you know Kelly I don't think that. Um, we disagree as much as you think we do and towards the end of his life. We actually ended up sort of making peace in a way because we had decided to write um, a paper together for the anthropology. The big anthropology conference. Um, but. 05:10.48 archpodnet Here. 05:26.57 Kelly He he ended up getting really sick and died before before we were able to do that but just working towards that with him I think was was good for both of us. But yeah I mean that was kind of of ah you know the circular path that kind of led me to you know, just being interested in anthropology and um. 05:28.70 archpodnet And. 05:45.92 Kelly And ended up you know getting a ah Ph D in in the field. 05:48.96 archpodnet Well, ah a spite ph d I think that's the first time we've had one of those exactly on the podcast. Um, that's that's really cool though that it that you too were able to communicate on it and um, you know, eventually come around to. Um, collaborating. Even. 06:11.35 Kelly Yeah I mean um, there were there were some other things that happened to along along this path and I think that there were there were moments where like the first time I saw him at an anthropology meeting. He said to me. I never thought I'd see the day. A Porch Creek was at the alea and I just don't think he understood how like kind of condescending that felt to me at the time. Um I one hundred percent believe that he he thought he was giving me a compliment. Um, but you know it it was just I mean it was a weird power time. You know, um. 06:31.62 archpodnet Nope. 06:36.90 archpodnet Yeah. 06:42.00 archpodnet Yeah, um. 06:47.62 Kelly But then for my certificate museum studies I did an internship at the Porch Museum um and I remember he came to visit and he had all of these cds of interviews he had done in the 1960 s and seventy s and so. He had interviews with people who were born in the eighteen hundreds like it is a treasure trove. Um, and I I remember I remember asking him you know, um, now that we have a museum and we have you know a fireproof vault and we have places to store things. Um. 07:05.54 archpodnet Oh man. Wow. 07:22.32 Kelly Could we get copies of those so that if people come in doing research or want to ask about family members and things like that could we have a copy of these and he said you know I've decided that I'm going to put these in the national archives. Um, so I think yeah I think that's. 07:22.41 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 07:33.97 archpodnet What. 07:39.84 Kelly That's where they're gonna be and I was of course super mad because again I'm in the middle of my spike ph d when this happens and I said okay, cool. You know what? if I have to go to Dc and make copies myself after you have kicked the bucket then I'll do that and kind of stop talking to him. Um. Then like two weeks later he called me at the museum and he said um I just want you to know that one of my best friends just died. Um, it was a free accident. He fell off a ladder but it's got me thinking about my own mortality and there's a box with your name on it with all of the recordings that I have. 08:09.00 archpodnet And. 08:18.22 Kelly Coming to the museum and so we did end up getting copies of those but it kind of took I think it took a lot of work on his part to kind of I mean I looking back I Really do respect everything that he did for the tribe. Um. 08:18.39 archpodnet Good. 08:34.72 Kelly Because there's no way we would have gotten federal recognition without his work. Um, and ah and I also respect the fact that he was willing to learn at at the stage in his career that he was I mean he was willing to listen to me and to take their critiques and stride and you know to really. 08:45.75 archpodnet Um, yeah. 08:53.78 Kelly Sort of I don't want to say grow because that sounds like condescending to him but like really be open minded to what I have to say and kind of the critiques that I was making and so I do really respect him for that. But I mean we we kind of butded heads a couple times before before that came to pass you know. 09:09.60 archpodnet Yeah, yeah, well that was very much the generation of there was no expectation that anyone from the community would ever you know, read their work or challenge them in any way. So you know I think just the fact that um. 09:20.83 Kelly Um, right exactly. 09:29.35 archpodnet He came around in the end you know does say a lot even though it it took some work on your part to get to get him there but because yeah, there's certainly plenty of people from that generation that would not have come around. 09:32.69 Kelly Um, yeah. Yeah, absolutely I I who exactly exactly and I mean I feel like I've kind of found that out I mean I've I've been finding that out since I've been in this in this discipline like just how. 09:52.19 archpodnet Right? yeah. 09:55.32 Kelly You know people dig their heels in especially when it's somebody from a community that has been one that has been written about you know what? I mean. So. 10:02.00 archpodnet Um, yeah, yeah, and I mean I said of that generation. There's still plenty in this generation where it's the same thing. So um, so yeah, so yeah. 10:11.96 Kelly Um, oh a hundred percent so there. But. 10:18.46 archpodnet Well Okay, so let's let's go back to um your dissertation your spite dissertation and um, tell me tell me more about um what you were really hoping to say without what you were hoping to study what you were interested in. 10:24.14 Kelly Yes. 10:35.83 Kelly Yeah, so um I think when I started my fieldwork I started my fieldwork in 2009 and I had really different expectations of what my my research and my dissertation was going to be about because in January of 2009 um, that's when porch opened its first casino and it was all anybody could talk about um and I mean we're in Alabama so we only have class 2 gaming which means that there's no table games and the slot machines are run off of a bingo algorithm. So it's not like. Ah, slot machine in Vegas when you play a slot in porch. It plays out a bingo game on the machine to figure out whether or not you won so it's a little different but it opened up and it was you know a 17 story hotel which was probably the tallest building and and 250 hundred and fifty miles or something I don't know it's like very I mean it's in the middle of rural Alabama but um I had decided I wasn't going to write about the casino. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly and so I mean it was like a big deal. Um. 11:36.19 archpodnet I was going to say that nearest 17 story building to me I don't even probably Albuquerque. 11:50.13 Kelly And I had decided like I wasn't going to write about it because I felt like Jessica Catalino's book about the seminole was like the book on indian gaming right? and so I didn't really feel the need to to do anything about casinos or or anything like that. It was kind of. 11:57.54 archpodnet Ah, here. 12:06.33 Kelly Interested in kinship and how people decide who's related to who and um, you know how you know just that whole thing. But when I got home to do this. It's all anybody could talk about and I mean rightfully so because it was very exciting for the community I mean it was the first time there was a you know. 12:16.15 archpodnet A. 12:24.46 Kelly Like an entertainment complex anywhere near this town of 8000 that I grew up in um, but what ended up happening is that once the casino kind of took off and the tribe became more profitable. There were all there was like an influx of people who wanted to. Suddenly claim this Porch Creek identity and my mom who grew up. Yeah, yeah, So my mom who went to um, all Indian schools up until high school. She kind of talked about how when she was. 12:45.00 archpodnet Oh. 13:02.39 Kelly When she was growing up and you know even though it was way past the brown ve board of education decision to integrate schools. Um, it is Southern Alabama so there's a lot of kind of segregation still happening and she went to this all indian school until high school and as she started going to high school. Were all of these students who were discriminating you know with really racist kind of ways towards the native students that were coming there as well as the black students and um I think what was most interesting to me is that some of the people who could pass as white. Um. 13:31.90 archpodnet Um. 13:41.30 Kelly Were involved in this discrimination and were then the ones who were lining up first to get put on the tribal rolls and so to me that was just really fascinating because suddenly people in porch were seeing the folks that. 13:42.80 archpodnet Oh. 13:59.16 Kelly Thought were you know these super racist people in high school showing up at the indian health service clinic and you know them being shocked at why this person would be there and so porch. The porch community is sort of started coming up with ways to describe these folks and so a lot of people called them. Bc or Ac Indians so before casino or after casino. Um, yeah, which I I think is pretty pretty entertaining. The other thing is that all of the people all of the people who um were trying to become enrolled. Um. 14:28.22 archpodnet Oh. 14:38.12 Kelly And were successful in that after the casino came their tribal roll numbers all started with number 3000 and so the other kind of way that people describe them was to call them the 3000 at the time and so it was just really interesting to me to sort of see the way in which. 14:48.37 archpodnet Oh okay. 14:57.25 Kelly Legal definition of what a citizen looked like was versus what the community decided about particular people so there were people who obviously had the one quarter blood Quantum and were able to get on the roll because of that but who had had participated in this like Anti-native racism back in the day. 15:03.52 archpodnet And here. 15:16.58 Kelly Um, but were you know obviously interested in any kind of economic incentive to being enrolled. Um, but then on the other hand you had people who were born and raised in the community who did not meet the definition of. 15:32.60 archpodnet Right. 15:35.13 Kelly And enrolled citizens so they had less than one quarter block on them who aren't enrolled citizens but who are very much thought of as you know Porch Creek and so I was just really interested in thinking through you know what that looked like and how how people decided who belonged and who didn't. Outside of the legal definition that the you know like the tribal council decides upon or that is voted in. Um, you know like the legal requirements for citizenship. 16:02.80 archpodnet Yeah, this is definitely something that's been I feel like coming up a lot lately in in the tribes that I've been working with where there's some major concerns of like for example, ah. Working on ah an mou involving ceremony and people having the conversation about like um, you know on the 1 hand not wanting community members who would be appropriate for that to be left out but then on the other hand um, you know. Having that very real fear of people who don't know what they're doing because they aren't part of the community really um, coming in and and doing ceremony and you know hurting somebody. Um, so yeah, it seems like this topic has is. 16:51.40 Kelly Right? right? yeah. 17:00.84 archpodnet It's come been coming up a lot lately. Um, so do you. 17:04.50 Kelly Well and especially since now you have like people who are interested in having their Dna tested and they're suddenly you know native because you know their d test shares that they're 1% like native american or whatever. Um, so a lot of those people are also. 17:10.58 archpodnet Yeah. 17:18.41 archpodnet Me. 17:23.27 Kelly Always you know, kind of calling the tribal enrollment office to ask about things like that. Um, but also just like native scholars in general I mean if people email me or call me about things like that too. Um and I always just direct and kill Kim Tallber's work around native american dna and. Thinking through like okay if a community doesn't claim you then you can't claim the community. You know what? I mean. So. 17:44.80 archpodnet Um, sorry I'm just making a note because I want to put that in the show notes sorry editor edit that out. Um, yeah, So I mean I'm. I imagine you know with like the commercial Dna Test. It's not like it distinguishes it all either right? I mean it just says like indigenous or native American It's It's not like it's saying oh you have a quarter you know, Deny or something like that right. 18:07.30 Kelly Um, now done though. 18:16.35 Kelly Right? right? That's exactly right? It is incredibly generic and you know a lot of times I feel like people who are taking those Dna tests are really looking for something like something significant something that's meaningful to them and. 18:30.90 archpodnet Me. 18:34.44 Kelly You know they try to make meaning out of it and it's really hard to do that because you're right, there's no kind of specifics. It just says like this generic thing and I mean even in you know higher ed we see a lot of people trying to claim a native identity without knowing any of that stuff based on Dna tests which is. 18:36.80 archpodnet Right. 18:51.92 archpodnet Um, right right. 18:54.26 Kelly You know as you know, incredibly but Alogatic. So um, is something that I feel like we're gonna have to talk about a lot more as ah, you know as not only like indigenous scholars but also just like as citizens of the world I Guess to to think more about what those. What those findings mean. 19:12.85 archpodnet Right? So when people reach out to your tribe's enrollment office and they're like hey look I got this Dna test and it says that I'm ah you know, indigenous? What? um is it usually like. Reaching out because like hey they live nearby and you're the nearest tribe or are they reaching out like because oh great Grandma said you know that there was some sort of connection to to Porch Creek or something. Do you get a sense of like why they're reaching out to. Your tribe specifically. 19:51.76 Kelly Yeah I mean I I can't speak about the enrollment office I can only tell you about the people that I've been in contact with who have contacted me personally um, but but they're they're um, mostly I you know I think that they a lot of cases. It seems to me like they've just run across my name. 20:00.90 archpodnet That's true, right. 20:11.62 Kelly And it's not necessarily about Porch Creek it's more kind of like they're searching for something you know and I think that um you know just they're they're trying to find. 20:15.53 archpodnet A. 20:26.88 Kelly I don't know some meaning in their lives. This is the sense that I get is that they're really looking for something to hold on to um in that I'm just somebody random who thinks about indian identity and so I end up with some of those interesting emails in my inbox but there is a um, there's a book by circy Stern becoming indian. That I assign in all of my sort of intro to Native North America classes because she does such a wonderful job talking about race shifters. That's what she defines as people who are born not indigenous and then begin claiming an in indigenous identity. Ah, the course of their lifetime and so I think that that is like a really illuminating source to to read and to think through because she does a really good job of showing what people. And in hers specifically around cherokee cases and in fake cherokee groups around the United States but she does such a good job of really showing this this balanced and fair view of people who are seeking that identity. Um. 21:20.38 archpodnet Um, a. 21:37.28 Kelly And the first half of the book and then the second half of the book is all from cherokee citizens from the 3 federally recognized cherokee tribes and what their reactions to those race shifters are and so I think that is a good place to to look for sort of meaning around why people. Are doing this or why they're so interested in claiming this indian identity or or some kind of indigeneity. 22:04.71 archpodnet All right? Well we are already at our first break point but I have so many more questions to ask you when we get back. 22:12.59 Kelly Um, question. Thank you? okay.