00:00.26 archpodnet Welcome to heritage voices episode 65 I'm Jessica u quinto and I'm your host and today we are talking about indigenous led cultural resource management and heritage companies before we begin I'd like to honor acknowledge that the lands I'm recording on today are part of the noch or uot people's treaty lands. The danta and the ancestral pueblo in Homeland and today we have a panel on the show. So I'm gonna have all of them introduce themselves and we're gonna start with Ashley who you already know. 00:33.80 Ashley Spivey Hi desks. Thank you again for having me and inviting me to be a part of this conversation today. My name is ashley spy I'm a member of the pamunkee indian tribe and I am talking to you guys today from the pamukee indian reservation in Virginia. 00:34.20 Desiree I. 00:52.20 Ashley Spivey Um I am executive director of Kena Consulting which is an anthropological and cultural heritage management firm that works with tribal communities tribal organizations and institutions that work closely with with tribal nations. Um, and our work is really focused on supporting sovereignty administrative capacity within tribal communities all kind of focused on that from an anthropological and cultural cultural heritage management perspective. 01:22.93 archpodnet Awesome! Thank you Ashley Desiree 01:27.92 Desiree Hello my name's Desra Martinez and I'm a member of the gabelin o tongva community which are the original people of the Los Angeles basin area and I am president of cockstone resource management which is a cultural resources firm that practices archeology paleontology and history. Our headquarters are located in Orange California but we have offices throughout California and 1 in Arizona but we do work nationwide and since taking the helm of cockstone the last two and a half years I'm really refocusing the company on practicing indigenous archaeology or as much. As you can within the compliance arena here in California and nationwide making sure that indigenous voices are heard and that any reports or summaries really do. Um, reflect the history as the tribes see themselves. 02:26.92 archpodnet Awesome! All right? So Jeremy as our our Jeremy as our first timer on this podcast would you mind introducing yourself. 02:29.28 Jeremy Begay Oh. Okay. Sure well yata, my name is Jeremy be gay I'm ah the owner of crez or archeological group. We're a one hundred percent Navajo owned and staffed anthropological consulting group located in Farmington New Mexico we do all of our work on the Navajo nation in the state. So. Utah New Mexico and Arizona as well as three satellite reservations throughout New Mexico 03:04.89 archpodnet Awesome. Okay, last but not least Steve. 03:11.33 Steve DeRoy Well, thanks so much for the invitation. My name's Steve Deroy I'm anish nae from e and flow and Lake Manitoba First nations in Manitoba I'm a director. And owner of the firelight group I'm currently based in North Vancouver british Columbia canada and um, a lot of my work is focused on providing support to indigenous communities Firelight's an indigenous own consultant group that. Works with communities to provide high quality research policy planning mapping negotiation and advisory services. Um the other bit of work that I do is I'm a cartographer by trade. So I teach people how to use maps and tell stories of place and space. Um, and I teach I found it. Ah an annual event called the indigenous mapping workshop where we bring technology partners together and show people how to tell those stories. 04:08.83 archpodnet Great. This is such a good group I'm so excited to have this conversation Thank you again. Desiree for suggesting the topic I'm really excited to have this conversation and and also a note you know. If you have suggestions for future episodes. Definitely reach out. It may take me a long time I think we started talking about this one like I don't I don't even know like a year and a half two years ago probably um so it may take me a while but um, but we will get to it if you suggest it. So. Ah, so please send any suggestions are we and Jeremy I'm going to pick on you as since this is your first time on the podcast and let's let's hear about why you wanted to be a Crm archaeologist. 04:48.66 Jeremy Begay All right? but. 05:00.77 Jeremy Begay Okay, well well mice I like to say my story begins a long long time ago in the 1980 s um I had the opportunity to grow up right next to a large prehistoric village on the Navajo nation. 05:01.66 archpodnet Why did you choose this role. Basically. 05:18.25 Jeremy Begay Um, and a lot of my time was spent just wandering around the site and looking at all the neat stuff and I think that really shaped my desire to be an archeologist when I actually found out that I could do archaeology as a profession so I started my schooling in the early 2000 with another Navajo and company where I was an intern during my time there I learned the ins and outs of of the field started out as an intern worked my way up to ah an archeologist and then eventually a supervisor archeologist and then it was time to to change roles and. I had always envisioned myself as being I guess a field rat went one to be out in the field and the academics was was interesting to me but it it was more of of a desire to help my people. Um. Using archeology and and working in the crn field that led me to establish careers or archeological group to continue that that that practice of of given back to my community. Um, and also to to encourage training. Of young, indigenous people who want to see who want to come up in this profession to carry on ah the preservation of our culture and and and heritage as we all know which is is really disappearing at a fast rate I like to say that we're making headway into that and in in some arenas we are but it is an uphill battle. And and I'm I wanted to establish a place where we could continue that that fight to keep our our cultures alive through doing crm. 07:01.40 archpodnet Yeah, so I kind of want to open that question up to the rest of you. Um, in terms of you know, obviously all 3 of you just like Jeremy like you could have done a lot of things with archeology. Um, and and what. Jeremy was touching on there. Why why did the rest of you choose cm and heritage as opposed to like academia or nonprofits or any other you know museum work. Whatever other form that you could have taken with with your degree. And your focus in anthropology. Why did you choose to go this route. 07:47.77 Steve DeRoy Well Steve here one of the things I was thinking about is is I've actually worked in academia and I've worked in nonprofits and I have worked in these areas and I think that that's what allowed me to get a good and insight about what those different kind of. Foundations where and where they were coming from and how they were addressing these issues and it allowed me to be a better researcher when I started my company because um, you know I kind of ah fell into mapping. It wasn't it wasn't something that I thought I was going to do and even when I was. Training to become a cartographer I didn't know how I was going to apply that skill and so it it required me to be working in these various environments to see how maps can be used as a tool to tell that story of place and to document that cultural heritage and. Um, so from from those nonprofit perspectives I was able to get a good understanding from the you know the government perspectives I was able to understand what their their desires were for for map-based data and then when it came to actually starting a company I was able to really say hey listen, let's take the best out of all of these places and all these types of. Um, professional, um places and and actually apply those skills and and at the end of the day it it allowed me to be a stronger researcher and and really focus on the things that matter most to indigenous communities and so for me, it was. It was like how do I take the best out of all these places and then take that and apply that working directly for communities and indigenous nations and so for me I felt it was a benefit and I kind of think of it as one of these things where I tried to surround myself with people that were much smarter than. Than me and I I could if I was close enough to them that I might be able to maybe some of that magic dust would fall onto me and and now even with my own company I hire people that are much much smarter than I am but because there's what my role is is really is about creating a space. For us to be able to do this work so I understand what my role is so I'm technically not an archaeologist I'm just going to put that up unlike other other folks on this call. 10:03.33 Ashley Spivey I. 10:04.25 archpodnet Neither am I. 10:10.60 archpodnet So doesrae or Ashley either of you have thoughts on that. 10:12.90 Ashley Spivey Okay. 10:12.94 Desiree I earlier asked so I fell into crm and just like um, what Steve was saying is that I've done museum work I've done academic work I've done. Work as a tribal monitor. Obviously as an archaeologist and I had hoped to actually have a career in academia but needed to come home and ended up not finishing my ph d and so like most archeologists you kind of need a job and so but I ah didn't ever want to do cram because it has such a bad reputation. 10:51.00 Ashley Spivey Um, but then. 10:51.21 Desiree 1 across the nation but also in California a lot of my community members had told me throughout his history. Well throughout and throughout their lifetimes in their relationships with archaeologists in California they never could trust what was being told to them. They always felt that they were used. 10:59.73 Ashley Spivey Are. 11:08.48 Desiree Um, when they would be quote unquote consulted with or weren't even consulted at all most of the gabalinno tongva community members that were involved in the you know heritage business orerm business as tribal monitors in California. Um. Felt that there were you always reacting to things and projects that were destroying our sites so I always knew I wanted to be an archeologist to protect our sites and I needed a job and the president of cockstone at the time Sheri's sherry gust had met me through my work at Ucla at the Fowler Museum and asked me if I wanted to do some work and I've been working at cogstone since 2009 and once I started to get a taste of theerm um work and particularly working with with Sherry Guston that she had really good relationships and was very honest with tribal members and in some instances. Providing advice to tribal members on how to protect sites helping dig up information that they could use to counter some of the um, the interpretations that archaeologists were having regarding sites that were related to their community. So I really respected her and a lot of communities respected her as well. And. That gave me a light that Sierra went work could be useful to communities. But it's also as I continue to do the work that it's very important because a lot of the development that happens here in California. Goes through the environmental review process and it really is the Sierra firms that collect that information from tribes and other entities and you could you know it's kind of like working in the belly of the beast of you know, making sure that indigenous concerns are um. Brought to the table and acknowledge but also try to help whatever agency which is working with the tribes to actually address the concerns and providing unique insights from my own tribal background to create solutions quote unquote for. Um, any issues that the the tribes might bring to the table so you know my eyes have changed that you you can use both archeology as well as the crm um process to help forward indigenous needs and issues. Um, for the betterment to the community. 13:37.70 Ashley Spivey So this is Ashley I guess I will I'll jump in here. Yeah, um I would say my experience is kind of actually similar to to Jeremy and does raise in a lot of respects. Um I grew up around. Ah. 13:43.41 archpodnet Ashley I was going to say. 13:56.91 Ashley Spivey You know the field of of archaeology. Um here on the reservation I you know I had the opportunity to see positive example of of archaeological work being done in consultation with the tribal community my own community. Um, you know through the work that my grandfather was doing Warren Cook with archaeologists from the state of Virginia and helping to tell our stories and helping us to establish a museum here on the reservation and so I kind of grew up around this positive example of of how anthropology and archeology can be used as a tool to help us tell our stories. Um, from our perspectives. Ah, but unfortunately I had you know I had a very rude ah awakening when I did enter academia um, regarding the fact that especially in the region that that we're from in the Middle Atlantic region um with no federally recognized tribes up until very recently. Um, we never had a seat at the table regarding consultations if our resources were being impacted or destroyed um or the ways in which our stories and histories were being told we were rarely ever invited to the table to be a part of that discussion. And to be the leaders of it and so I saw archeology and anthropology as a tool and as an opportunity to help you know my community and in the wider Virginia indian community and and having a seat at that table and telling our stories and histories from our perspectives and. You know I've I've been in academia um, but you know I think I had said this in my my previous interview with you Jessica um I just at least in you know in Virginia and the region where I'm from academia really isn't the best place in terms of supporting tribal communities. Unfortunately. And you know in terms of where they are now that is starting to slowly change again since federal recognition of of 7 tribal communities in Virginia within the last five years that's changing but it's changing very slowly and I just you know I saw unfortunately academia as as a roadblock. To helping tribal communities in terms of supporting tribal sovereignty building their administrative capacity which is is still ongoing um within my community and and with this within the other communities that were recently federally recognized. So. You know I I chose the consulting route I started working with my partner. She actually she and I met she was the the petition author for our petition for federal acknowledgment that went through the the ofa, the office of federal acknowledgement process. Um, and was finally granted in 2016. 16:43.44 Ashley Spivey Um, so she and I she's a fellow anthropologist who has worked with tribal communities for her whole career decided to to come together. Um and use our skills again as as anthropologists we have a slogan that's you know our motto is anthropology is advocacy. That's really how we understand. The field um that it should be service based for communities and not just something that's ah held within the quote unquote ivory tower and and kept amongst themselves. it's it's for our people and it's it's for me a tool that we can use to empower ourselves and to preserve our histories and our cultural heritage. So that's that's how I got involved in it and how I kind of decided the route of of consulting um would be the best way to do that and the majority ah of the folks that we work with our clients are tribal nations from from the East Coast to the West Coast and and places in between. So we have the honor of working with many different tribal nations across the country on ah on a variety of aspects in terms of supporting tribal sovereignty through the protection of of cultural heritage. 17:53.60 Steve DeRoy Ashley I really like that that slogan that you have anthropology is advocacy and for us for me I see research as healing and being indigenous and using. 17:57.64 Ashley Spivey Um, yes. Um, yes. 18:08.23 Steve DeRoy Ah, the way we've structured our whole research process is really meant to help guide people through a process of sharing knowledge and being comfortable about sharing that knowledge and oftentimes people haven't come to them to ask them questions about some of these things that we're talking about today and it's. Probably the first time and so oftentimes many community members will just want to say whatever they need to say and get it off their chest and then and then you can dive into the research questions that you've come prepared to ask them and and I just think it's a whole It's a healing process. It's ah it's one of those things that you need to give that space for communities to have that voice to be able to share that knowledge and to to be able to as a researcher to be able to say this information that you're sharing with me is. Extremely important and I'm going to do everything I can to treat it that way and I'm going to document it in a very rigorous way I'm going to be responsive to people's knowledge and and and they're the ones that are the knowledge holders my role as the facilitators really about how do we? How do we elicit that in ah in a way that's. That's a safe and healing process and so I just liked what you said there about anthropology as advocacy because I think it is an advocate role that we play as as researchers and it is a healing process that we're going through. To allow people to share that knowledge. 19:42.80 archpodnet Yeah, okay, so I really like that idea of research as healing and all of you basically touched on different aspects of how you wanted to use Crm and heritage as a tool in in helping the communities. Ah, that you work with or supporting I should say the the communities that you work with and so we are already at our first break. But when we come back I really want to dive in more to some of the ways that working for a serum company has helped you guys to just do that. So like for example. Maybe if there's a highlight that each of you could share of a project that you know maybe or project or it could be something else as well. But a way that Crm has allowed you to give back to indigenous communities that might have been harder. Um, in one of those other formats like a museum or a nonprofit or academia et cetera so when we get back. We will dive into that very excited to continue this to continue this conversation.