00:00.40 archpodnet Hello and welcome back to the crm archeology podcast episode 287 and Doug and I have been talking about the education system in the U K and we will bring it around to archeology as we go so doug you are on a roll and it's just been fascinating. So if you just want to continue just. Go for it. 00:21.32 Doug Yeah, um I think we'll pick up a little bit where we're just talking about you know, preparedness of students there also would be difference in the UK in that in America there's ah, there's a larger range of educational opportunities. 00:25.11 archpodnet Right. 00:37.64 Doug And sort of educational opportunities that can move you along to get a degree. So Andrew you're at you know a community college. You're doing ° and there's a lot of people who you know go for a two year degree associate some just stop at that point but other are using that as a a springboard to go to a full bachelor's and honestly i. 00:42.57 archpodnet Right. 00:50.99 archpodnet Um. 00:53.50 archpodnet Um, yep. 00:57.13 Doug Highly recommend it in the states depending on where you are because you know 2 years at a community college is costs almost nothing compared to the yeah. 01:02.29 archpodnet You save so much money I know people don't realize sometimes it's like it's pocket change dude in comparison. Yeah. 01:10.83 Doug Yeah, it's it's a great thing. The u k doesn't really have that and also they've had a huge change over the last decade and a half with their well a little bit longer with their educational system. So Scotland ah, still mostly free university. England charges much lower, no wales charges much lower. Um England you know it's about Nine Thousand ah a student. Um and it's all locked like there's a much higher central control. Um there. So all universities have to charge the same amount. There's no. 01:41.41 archpodnet Um, first. 01:45.25 Doug But there's no like variation. There's none of this like you can go to Harvard for 60000 you pay the same amount if you go to ah seaside college as you do to Oxford um, but there's been a lot of changes. There's been introductions and part of that is they basically. 01:49.26 archpodnet Ah, right. 01:55.90 archpodnet He. 02:03.52 Doug Gutted what we would call continuing education. Um, and they they'd sort call it lifelong and learning over here and and you know as like a community college. You probably also get a lot of people who come in sort later later in life and um, they're they're interested in sometimes it's just like 1 class or you know they they just don't. 02:04.97 archpodnet Right. 02:15.26 archpodnet Yes. Um, Oh yeah, they just want to learn stuff. Yeah. 02:23.15 Doug You're you're just taking a class because you're interested in a subject and you want to learn more? Yeah and there's still like tiny bits of departments but there used to be like the numbers. It was like maybe 8000 I think at the peak which is like maybe 2006 or 2005 eight ten thousand people taking these sort of lifelong learning courses in the Uk and now it's down in in the hundreds. Um, they basically got they basically gotted it and I also like all all those courses sort of lead people on to potentially degrees later in life. Um, so you might build up some credits. Yeah. 02:45.79 archpodnet Um, that's so sad and. 02:55.30 archpodnet They do I've seen it. Yep I've seen it multiple times. What happens is you'll get people who have retired or maybe they were successful. Maybe they were a successful lawyer or something you know and they've. Retired but they've been like man I've just always been super interested in archeology you know and I've seen people like have full on second careers you know and it starts in that lifelong learning phase. 03:20.13 Doug And yeah, mostly in the U K There's not that sort of pipeline as it were. They've killed most of it and then also that sort of sink or swim like um as we were talking about like mean gets University Actually you know the sort of liberal arts being able to get that extra sort of. 03:24.90 archpodnet I. 03:37.31 Doug Support or a different class to teach you maybe some of those other skills if you basically fail out you fail out. Um, and there's not that it's it's much more of a you go to university or you go learn a trade. Um and there is. Used to be it used to be like huge retraining programs especially when they closed down a lot of the mines and stuff a lot of the miners went on to actually go get University degrees second careers. Um, that just doesn't exist anymore. It's it's much more of a you either are in there. You get the degree this way or. 04:00.49 archpodnet Um, who. 04:13.69 Doug Or and again if you're coming back. There are some lifelong courses. There are like universities still have a very small department that does that what they call lifelong learning. It's very small. You can kind of slightly build your way into a degree but really, um, not all those credits will quite transfer correctly and because it's so specialized. Like the lifelong learning. You'll have a whole range of different courses. It's actually really awesome. So in like Scotland I've done um a course on data visualization at galasgow I've done. Ah okay, so actually I shouldn't use the term course course would be like what we call a degree course. Um, they'd actually call a module so instead like a class or a course what we call in states they call a module so I've done a module on yeah different therms I've done a module on like data visualization at Glasgow um I did one with Dundee which was how to communicate with comics. Awesome! Awesome things. But. 04:54.81 archpodnet Good God man. 05:08.93 archpodnet Um, right on? yeah. 05:11.45 Doug Those credits don't you know like if you were to build up in the United States you could build a bunch of sort of like that liberal arts credits and that would count you really can't do that because it's so so narrowly focused so you basically coming back for a second career. You basically have to commit to. 05:22.93 archpodnet Yeah. 05:30.76 Doug Doing a full time or part-time degree. You know 3 years six years or you know 4 or 8 if you're in Scotland and you there's not really a chance. You can maybe pick up occasional few credits here or there maybe start a few in archeology. But then you have to really commit. 05:34.44 archpodnet Um, right. 05:49.24 Doug Um, and that's the same with pretty much any degree. It's it's much harder than in the the states where you can sort of you know over a couple years take a couple classes maybe get an interest and then go back and then you you have a bunch of other credits and it can really help you to get like a build up to get your bachelor's um. 05:49.51 archpodnet Um. 06:01.11 archpodnet Yep. 06:08.70 Doug It's really much ah all or nothing. Um, so I've probably talked and enough about the undergraduates. Um, there are some yeah you get some students a few americans who come over do undergraduates again 3 years if you're in the rest of the UK four years if you're in Scotland um. 06:09.97 archpodnet Wow! yeah. 06:22.86 archpodnet Right. 06:27.73 Doug It's you know also be careful like yeah while the fees are are 9000 for UK people in england free in Scotland um, they can charge. There's no cap on foreign students. So yeah. 06:40.47 archpodnet Oh man. 06:44.80 Doug So for an undergraduate doesn't actually make that much sense because you can come over and you're paying like 2030 or £40000 it used to be worth worse when the pounds were you know, much worth a lot more dollars now. It's not too bad of a deal if you go to like England where it's only a three year degree 06:49.96 archpodnet Yeah. 07:03.39 Doug You could still probably make it um, financially viable. Ah you know, especially compared to like doing out of state in State I Don't think it's I don't think there's a economic advantage. The only thing is like it's cool because you're in a different country different cultures different way of doing things. Um, well. 07:18.64 archpodnet Um, right. 07:22.49 Doug But yeah, ah, basically it's where you where you can really make really good money on most places is when you come and do the master's degree because they have basically sort of 2 types of masters one is a top masters. Um, which is you basically do it's only 1 year and and that's that's the same across all the Uk so Scotland for once isn't different. Um and basically it's taught again. Ah shorter semesters shorter contact hours. I mean you're looking ten twelve hours um it's a lot more. You're doing stuff on your own. 07:44.28 archpodnet Um. 08:00.49 Doug Also something else is you know in the states you'd have like midterms and you probably have assignments happening throughout the year so you might have like ah an essay do maybe like four weeks in or like ah a small project or a little test or a quiz or something like that. 08:14.40 archpodnet Yeah, yeah, very typical. 08:19.54 Doug Yeah, not in the u k basically most of it goes all the way to the end and then you might have a final essay you turn in and it's one and you might have a final exam and you might have a combination where it's a mixture of like a final exam. And a final um essay and they might split up whatever your grade is between those 2 but um, especially at undergraduate level. It's mainly exams. Um, ah, they'll differ between different degrees in you know, different subjects and stuff like that. 08:38.79 archpodnet Great. 08:51.58 archpodnet He yeah. 08:54.93 Doug But basically it's all or nothing So there's not like that sort of you can you can sort of mess up once and that's it you mess up on your final exams. You have to retake there's and you have to do the course again. That's that there's none of this sort of averaging it out. Um. 09:03.72 archpodnet Right. Yeah, yeah. 09:12.10 Doug Doing that those calculations at the end I remember always yeah you your filing are like all I'm just past all depths do is get like a 70 on that I'm okay, um, now it's it's very different. 09:20.96 archpodnet Yeah, totally that happens all the time you students are like okay if I can just get a 68.25 I'll be all right? And honestly I never like that it's funny as we've been talking for the most part I've been like yeah United States us Usa right? I read like like we're doing things right? um. The the 1 thing about that sort of all or nothing there are aspects of that I kind of like you know it's that's not all bad huh it's because on the flip side you get it it just it just. 09:44.95 Doug Um, what do you? What do you like about that. What what do you like about that. 09:57.60 archpodnet Cuts out the whiners and the middlemen you know it's like look you're here to learn, not learn for this class. We're go have a test at the end you know and then um as a professor I'm here to like help you as best I can through this whole journey. But then we're gonna have this test barring like when you do stuff throughout the semester. Sometimes they'll be like. Like ah it it enables much more magical thinking and what I mean by that is like oh but on the first the ah ah soon I'll be like what why did I get an f in this class I got to see on the first test and it's like yeah but you got like an f on everything Else. You know it's when it's just sort of a thing at the end it just calls it. It's like here you go. You know? So I'm I'm of I'm of 2 minds I'm not saying I'm all in on it. But I I respect that Side. That's that's what I would say. 10:45.71 Doug Ah, um, I'd also say it's It's a bit different as well grading. So you know usually again mostly across the state and this will be generalization. You're grading your students' papers and you know the student you're grading correct. Usually yeah. 10:51.50 archpodnet Um. 11:00.70 archpodnet Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally always? um. 11:02.19 Doug Yeah, it's anonymous in the U K So um, all all the you get it back and you basically grade and you don't you may you may know because maybe the students have come to like office hours and you've worked on the essay with them. So then you'll know. 11:15.97 archpodnet Um, right. 11:18.78 Doug Um, and I've always recommended to students to do that because you know there's ways to it's the best way to improve um, but it's anonymous and it's usually there's a second person who reviews it. Um, and then again those grades go out to another review system that this whole review system. 11:23.19 archpodnet Yes. 11:37.11 Doug Where basically so allegedly name doesn't matter so all all degrees you have to they have like external examiners um or external. Ah, no eternal examiner is not the right term I Forget what's called but basically. 11:42.61 archpodnet Ah. 11:53.82 Doug Every degree every program in the Uk has to have externals who basically look at the entire program and like make suggestions and so um, they're like oh well, you know, maybe you should teach this slightly different and things like that and then they also review like a sampling of the essays and and the idea is that you know. 12:04.90 archpodnet Right. 12:12.49 Doug Whether you get a degree in Oxford or whether you get a degree in Glasgow they're equivalent. Of course name doesn't they're not because name makes a huge difference. Um, but but so that's like the grading. Um. 12:16.86 archpodnet Right? I get that. 12:28.27 Doug Ah, sorry, there's about a roundabout wave I sort of had to explain So it's anonymous and stuff. Um. 12:29.16 archpodnet No, this is dude. It's like sometimes on this show. You know we go over and I'm like oh man we got to re it in I think this is great. You're explaining things like straightforward people want to know just go for it man. 12:41.41 Doug Well so this comes back to like the slight problem with the like all or nothing is basically especially like for that first year students you get to the end and you don't know if anyone's been struggling along the way and then also it's anonymous. You can't. 12:51.50 archpodnet Um, yeah. 12:55.52 archpodnet Right. 13:00.85 Doug Like I'd get essays back and I don't know if the issue is maybe they had Dyslexia um, if they weren't just prepared or if like english was a second language. Ah and the problem is is like I get this back. It's all or nothing. 13:09.51 archpodnet Writer. Sure. 13:19.40 Doug And it's like so yeah, the archeology part's not bad, but it's not a coherent essay and you basically like you. There's no way to catch it and then there's like I remember writing in and one of the things I was like hey man you you. 13:19.38 archpodnet Um, yeah. 13:27.52 archpodnet Um, yeah. 13:37.73 Doug As the feedback I was like you really need to go see um the so the library at at the University I Edinburgh had like support and stuff for um, essay writing english as a second language and stuff like that those comets sorry. 13:42.70 archpodnet Um, yeah, you, you? Yeah, you know what in you know what? I hate Doug you know what I hate I hate it when you have a really good point. God damn it I totally agree with you I get that I get that I get the like intervention earlier on I was just thinking in terms of tests and stuff I'm like oh I'll or nothing at the end that's cool, but but I'm always for liking to know the students and and you're totally right to to to get something from them early on just as a check. Kind of like how are you doing? What do you know? What do you not know I stand aside um to your mastery. 14:21.58 Doug Well, but you can't also it's it's hard as like I put in comments like suggesting that they go and possibly get support for english as a second language or Dyslexia and those comments were stripped out because it had to. 14:33.38 archpodnet Um, yeah, yeah, ah yeah, that's a bummer right. 14:40.80 Doug It had to be anonymous and if if I was saying things like um I get it like I couldn't There's a lot of issues with writing that people can have and there's different reasons behind it. Um, and it. 14:59.85 Doug I get that but like it really they either had Dyslexia or english was a second language and they needed support with that but I couldn't put those comments in there. So basically they didn't do well and if they didn't do well and and in and my class I'm assuming the same problem occurred in all the other ones. 15:06.20 archpodnet Um, yeah. 15:18.43 archpodnet Um, sure. 15:18.70 Doug And they probably just were hammered at the end and either oh this is another thing grading skills completely different in the Uk um, so that you have yeah so you have what's called a first which is anything above a 70 15:29.56 archpodnet Um, what is this Alien Landscape you're taking me to. 15:35.80 archpodnet Knew her. 15:38.28 Doug You have ah a sort of 2 1 which is between like 60 and 70 or you know 60 and 69 a 2 2 um or well you know it's there and and basically yeah, if if you get below like ah ah either 40 or 50 depending you failed? Um, but they also you're they. 15:43.25 archpodnet Um, yeah. 15:53.50 archpodnet Right. 15:58.90 Doug A huge graving grading on a bell curve. So yeah, the biggest shock for like americans when they get there is all of a sudden like you get like a 65 um and that's actually a pretty good grade. Um I like but you being people being used to like 90 or yeah like 90 s. 16:09.19 archpodnet Ah, ah right I'm laughing. Yes, yes. 16:17.66 Doug Like and again like it's all like they usually don't give like 80 like I say like a 70 year above it's usually you getting seventy seventy one 72 I think the highest grade I was able to get because again had to go to a second person to grade and agree with. 16:29.20 archpodnet Um. 16:34.78 archpodnet Yeah, yeah, right? Why see I didn't know any of this like like this is I Just think I just find this fascinating dude um and actually with that I get ah yeah, looking at the time man. 16:35.75 Doug I think the highest I was ever able to give out was like a 76 um yeah 16:48.30 Doug Let's tell. Yeah, okay. 16:51.32 archpodnet We'll have to go to segment 3 where we're we'll just have to like you know, answer all the questions and and we got to get to the um sort of the masters and PHD in their and their their length of time I'm so interested in that anyway we'll we'll continue in a moment. We'll be right back.