00:00.00 archpodnet Welcome back to the Syria Mark Podcast episode 2 63 and doug I think it's your turn to go so I'll call you in for this one. It's your it's your show. 00:13.49 Doug Um, yeah, So I guess I'd just like to add like a little Asterisks Um, at the back end of our last conversation to say like ah wages are pretty are okay, beginning out in archeology and you can actually make pretty good money. Um, though, if you're teching it up. Your problem is actually not so much the money you're Paying. It's the getting constant work is the harder Part. So I Just like to add that little asterisk of like you know your your hourly pay or your. 00:39.93 archpodnet Yeah. 00:44.63 Heather Um. 00:49.34 Doug Weekly pay your monthly pay is actually going to be better than like the average pay in most countries like in the Uk. It's better than the average um in the in America it's still better. It's well better than minimum wage. Um, there's still a problem though like until you actually get like a permanent constant job of work. Um, that's that's the bigger problem. It's not your hourly wage. It's you may only work six months or three months or nine months out of the year and that could be tough. 01:14.93 Heather But there's ways to there's ways to work around that and again it's the same thing I agree with you but it's the same thing you have to go out and get it. You have to be Creative. It's not something. It isn't the kind of job that you show up at a brick and mortar every day and you have a job waiting for you. It is something you're going to have to work At. So if you're in an area where you can't do archaeology year-round you're going to have to do you know or well fields archaeology year-round you're going to have to expand your skill set so you can do work in-house you can ah you know be a good Writer. You have to differentiate yourself from the rest. And it's not that hard to do and then also be open to you know, traveling to other parts of the country which is only good as an archaeologist to get more experience and makes you a better archeologist in your area and that also makes you ah you know it. It makes you more you know. You have more experience you can work in more areas and you know having permits I mean there's so many things that I think at University people don't tell you um in some states you have to be permitted to work there even in certain areas you have to be permit permitted within that state to work there and so. The more permits that you can acquire the more attractive you are to companies and the more skills that you can acquire the more attractive and also not digging your heels in and saying no I'm not you know I'm not willing to do this or that I mean the the person who's steps up and a company calls them. 02:49.11 Heather And you're available. Um, and you're willing to kind of look outside the box and do work as long as you're being fairly compensated for It. You should jump on it if if you want to do this.. It's going to require some travel. It's going to require you know, stepping outside of your comfort Zone. You're not going to be able to go to the same place every day That's just not. The nature of this business and so you know you you just that would be what I would say especially in the beginning is be open. 03:17.43 archpodnet Nice, nice. 03:20.40 Doug Yeah ima actually like do I I had a different myth by my like piggyback off of Heather's thing um ah somewhat related but I'd also say is like I I think we we definitely There's an expectation in archeology that you need to be an archaeologist 100% of the time to actually be an archeologist. Um whereas I just go back to like where heather your your comment about like you know field archeology especially like you know. 03:45.87 Heather Um, where. 03:54.65 Doug Um, and in the high plains. Ah where you know or places up north when you're you get like six feet of snow. Um, and there is not going to be any archeology during the winter or sometimes into may or June because there's still snow on the ground. Um it. It's a weird thing in our field where like we sort of look upon people who can't do archaeology all year round as not being archaeologists or is it being a sort of a failure um in the in the field I I would actually say like there's there's almost a myth that actually you could. Do archeology all year round everywhere and that's that's not true I would say like very few places are you able to actually be able to do archeology or field archaeology. You know, go out and and excavate or survey or whatever. Um, at least you know. 04:34.97 Heather Yeah, totally. 04:43.95 Heather Right. 04:51.38 Doug In the United States um and to be honest, like even in parts of the u k um, you know it's just not going to be possible during ah certain times or it may be possible but you definitely don't want to do it. 05:04.70 archpodnet Um, well, there's 2 05:05.99 Heather I Thought you were going a different route with that because I I agree obviously the field is limiting in certain areas with weather. But I thought you were going the other way and saying that it's a myth that you can't that archeology requires you to be in the field. 05:12.54 archpodnet Um. 05:23.73 archpodnet Yeah, that's what I was going to say yeah for sure. But there's that I mean building on that I watched an interchange on I want to say archeo field text on Facebook or something like that. 05:24.47 Heather Because there's so many other aspects of archeology outside of the field. Um, that's a myth. Yeah. 05:30.13 Doug Yeah, well ah take it up guys go with run with that as well. 05:32.42 Heather Yeah. 05:41.19 archpodnet Somebody I can't even remember what the conversation was about but Tom King jumped in and he's getting more and more cantankerous as he ah you know as he gets older. But oh I don't think there's a maximum for Tom King but he's um. 05:50.40 Andrew Wait His has he reached maximum Cantankerousness nice. 05:58.65 archpodnet But he he jumped in and somebody was talking about. They have a bachelor's degree and oh I think ah, the conversation was she was saying she's tried for several years to get to get jobs. She's got little things here and there but in reality she's going to have to go find another field because she just can't do this anymore and ah. Tom King jumped in on one of the threads of conversations basically saying that she's not an archeologist yet because she doesn't have a master's degree and like he's basically saying you're a field technician when you become an archeologist I know right? I know I know so. 06:21.68 Heather Oh okay, now you need the sad trampone. 06:22.98 Doug Off. 06:32.85 archpodnet Anyway, this is the Tom King Tom King sad trombone yeah so anyway, that's that is that I think that's a huge myth and it it really just depends on your mindset like I when I first got into this field before I even had a master's degree I said yeah I I I felt like shovel bum for sure. But even field technician to an extent was. 06:35.90 Andrew Ah. 06:52.73 archpodnet Almost disparaging to the people who you know went and got an education and and did this and and they have a b a or a Bs or something like that and in something that makes them I mean technically I wasn't even an archeologist I was an anthropologist that was what what my b a was in wasn't even archeology. You know what? I mean strictly speaking. But then you go into that field. And you're doing that profession I don't see why we're so crazy about not saying you are this and I I wouldn't I wasn't even going that route when I was first starting I was like calling everybody scientists especially when I was you know being ah a crew chief and with my undergrad degree without a master's I was like you know hey we're all scientists here. We're doing scientific work. Whether you like it or not and let's think of ourselves that way and we're not just we're not just warm bodies. We're not just whole diggers. We're not just you know people surveying we're doing actual scientific work using the scientific method right? We have a hypothesis out here. We have research questions and we are trying to find evidence in support of those or not. 1 of the 2 and that's what every archeology project is and I think people forget that sometimes to be honest. 07:57.59 Andrew I Chris you don't know because I'm really the only archaeologist here because I have a ph d okay, so anyway so I've just been monitoring this conversation. Oh wait. What. 08:06.30 Doug Anyway, whoa whoa whoa way man like yeah Andrew man like yeah to the word archeology. Everyone has a ph d. 08:08.65 archpodnet Ah, wait wait Doug has a ph d ah. 08:14.68 Andrew Well at least there's 2 real archeologists here. Yeah. 08:14.91 archpodnet But wait Andrew he he got his but Doug got his ph d in in it in in the u k so it's kind of like a ph d minus right? So just getting du. 08:23.66 Andrew Oh wait. Yeah, that doesn't really count doesn't really count. But yeah, that's all just a bunch of PH ohh that's a good one. 08:26.42 Heather Yeah, ouch, ouch yeah. 08:28.66 Doug Ah, a Ph I was the ph. 08:31.43 archpodnet Yeah, you're just a ph there's another myth right? like you, you can't get a ph d in the U K and then use that over here in the or masters for that matter and use that over here in this country. Yeah, they're like oh you'll be blacklisted because you didn't get it here and study study native americans yeah. 08:42.49 Andrew Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah I mean that's what I do Yeah I blacklist them? No I blacklisted dog a while back? Yes, a good one. 08:42.98 Heather That's on Yep Yeah, like that's not true I. 08:50.24 archpodnet I Like well you would yeah. 08:51.14 Doug No I've actually that's actually a really good um myth there as well where people are like they call it the drive by Master's degrees. Um, and it's looked down on. But yeah, but honestly like out of out of my um. 08:59.24 archpodnet Um, yeah should it's just more efficient. 09:09.14 Doug Of my year. There's quite a because quite a few Americans went over there. The the people are still in archeology one. Um, until recently I mean some medical issues and I'm not sure if there's still in archeology but made it all the way to a Pi um. 09:25.20 archpodnet Um. 09:26.88 Doug And then the other person is um, yeah, working again out I'm not sure like what sort of private details I can share but they're working in archeology as well. Um, and like the UKMasters or even a UKPh she had like no effect ah like. 09:44.66 archpodnet Yeah. 09:45.86 Doug No negative effect that I could see on their careers. Um, and occasionally yeah, at at the most like sometimes for like federal you might need you might need to pay like an extra couple hundred bucks to get a certificate that like. 09:47.30 Heather Yeah, we have multiple people in our company that have to Greece from Europe and it makes no difference. 09:50.35 archpodnet Yeah. 10:04.18 Doug Certifies it so that it can count for you know, maybe some government level something of you know, a regional or national level accreditation of a university. It's it's something very sillyly but it's you may not like that is only I think usually I've only heard about that needing that for federal. 10:14.95 archpodnet Um I. 10:22.63 archpodnet I would be shocked I would be shocked if they required a US degree I mean you can get a medical license in this country with a degree from Mexico you know what? I mean not to disparage that I'm just saying there's a lot of people that do that. There's a lot of mexicans that come up here with you know, degrees and various things. 10:23.63 Doug Most of the time you know people just you have a degree. 10:39.84 archpodnet For in the medical profession. My brother in law is one of those he's he's um, you know he's from ah, a dentist and you can do that Why would archeology be any different I mean I'm saying it isn't I've just never heard of it right? So be shocking. 10:52.19 Heather Well I do think I think that there could be an argument although I don't think it's true. But why let's say if they were to do that. Ah for the same reason why you have to permit in certain areas because archeology looks different archeology is different in different parts of the world you know? And so. 11:03.68 archpodnet Well sure, but but you can study Belize and archeology in the United States and you're not, you're not you know. 11:09.59 Heather It does you can exactly and that was my point. That's my point. So why? why look at somewhere from you know, ah Europe as as any different than somebody who's studying at Ucla but they're doing egyptology I mean it's just yeah. 11:14.89 Andrew That's right. 11:26.43 archpodnet Yeah I mean I One of my somebody I used to work with a long time ago. Actually I haven't seen him in a long time but he got his masters and I want to say Ph D as well in in the ah in England I think it was at but he was studying these. Ah. 11:29.90 Heather Egypt. 11:42.33 archpodnet Kimber what they were called. It was these particular types of stones that are found in usually cave type environments or rock shelter type environments in California because he's he's worked in California a lot. He just happened to be doing that research from a school in england right? So but he was definitely studying something very pertinent to us. 11:54.99 Heather So. 12:00.76 Heather Right? right? yep. 12:01.63 archpodnet Archeology if not Seara archeology and he was just doing it somewhere else. So. 12:07.53 Doug I mean like it could possibly like and this happens also like you get this in the Uk as well. Where like a lot of the universities again like kids will go do their ah field schools in cyprus or sicily or you know. France or someplace like that and like if you're starting out that can they might take the person who did like the field school that's local I think that this is pretty true for like anywhere in the us but like as soon as you have a little bit of experience. Um that that that yeah. 12:28.96 archpodnet Yeah. 12:37.78 Heather It doesn't matter anymore. Yeah, yeah, doesn't like. 12:42.90 Doug That's what that's what counts like there's like there's a vague thing of like if you had 0 experience and you're going for a job and there's you and another candidate and that other candidate has a field school and like I know Wyoming and you're going for a job in Wyoming. They'll probably choose the kid who has like a little experience in Wyoming. Maybe ah or they could also like you never know they could like know the field director of that and be like oh they know nothing. We're never going to hire anyone who's ever gone to that field school. So like you know there's there's all these little random things that are going to be probably ah have a bigger impact but um, as soon as you have that experience in that area. What you did in your degree means less and less I know like I'd say almost like the moment you get after you get your degree the moment you've like stuck a trol in the ground or a shovel or something like that your paper is. Almost worstless. It's not because you need like you know, permitting and stuff like that. But what do you guys? I mean is that sort of a myth. There is that like actually a degree makes much of a much of a difference beyond like you need them for certain permits and um, you know. 13:55.70 Heather Well, it's ah you know we had. We had some we had you know somebody from our staff on the show once Linda Cree who um is and it's actually 1 of your points. So I won't steal your thunder Chris but um, that later. 13:55.14 Doug Stuff like that. 14:03.70 archpodnet Um. 14:11.58 Heather But she is and a prime example of how you know you can not fit the stereotypical role of a leader in in archeology or somebody who becomes successful in archeology without all the bells and whistles that people say and that you have to have and she. You know? Yeah I I Just I don't think that people um you don't necessarily have to have everything you know when you start working in this business that is what's going to give you the credibility and so yes, you need to have degrees.. There are. 14:41.76 archpodnet Um, yeah. 14:48.34 Heather It is a little frustrating because there are times where she could write a full report and without my assistance whatsoever and we always see your review everything but you know and she's capable of senior review as well. But that report can't go out with my name on it without my name on it because she doesn't have you know. 15:05.35 archpodnet Um. 15:07.38 Heather But those are limited as far as doing the work and being able. There's so many aspects of this business that requires a skill set that have nothing to do with archaeology that if that person has those skill sets which unfortunately a lot of archaeologists don't ah part of it Common sense Business acumen. 15:20.19 archpodnet Um, yeah. 15:25.97 Heather All these you know, ah leadership qualities If you have those things. Um you just had to be able to show them. Yeah show what you got? yeah. 15:30.77 archpodnet Yeah, yeah, and I want to bring up a lot of stuff around that in segment 3 for sure. But maybe we should go to go to Andrew for a last one. Yeah. 15:41.80 Doug Ah, let's do a nice. Yeah, nice light late myth there on technology. 15:41.95 Heather Yeah, yeah, tech. 15:44.88 Andrew Yeah, on my technology rant. Um, but another one that it goes very close to lidar is ground penetrating radar. The idea that ground penetraing radar. All you do is like turn on a machine and it looks under the ground and you can see everything you know you just like roll a box. 15:58.94 archpodnet Wait wait. It's not like that. Oh no. 15:59.62 Heather Right? No yeah, no. 16:04.60 Andrew Oh yeah, no actually no, it's so funny. You look at this screen and you're like is that anything what? so and I think like movies like Jurassic park that they actually have that in the beginning where they have this ground ped during radar and you can see the like tyrannosaurus perfectly under the ground and. 16:20.66 Heather Yeah. 16:22.87 Doug That's. 16:22.95 Andrew And and the like the general public especially nobody's going to realize that it's just these like funky little like blobs on a screen. Yeah, ah and so in my in my experience. It's. 16:29.82 Heather Hills they're Hills Basically yeah yeah. 16:31.19 archpodnet They're they're Parabolus Inverted parabolus. 16:37.28 Andrew It's a lot of Hype and and I'm not saying it's worthless but it doesn't return nearly like you think. 16:41.82 archpodnet It. 16:42.23 Heather In certain circumstances. It's very helpful when it comes to burials. We're talking about like full burials but that is definitely helpful. Um, if you're looking at trying to find something where I think is it truths things when you. 16:46.31 archpodnet Sure. 16:48.83 Andrew Yeah. 16:59.78 archpodnet Um. 17:01.20 Heather Think something is there. It helps you identify Maybe where it is like if you think there's an a privy somewhere you know it's somewhere but you're not quite sure where it is or you know there's a foundation somewhere but you're not quite sure where it is or burial. Um, that's where it's It's helpful. But. 17:08.40 Andrew Okay, yeah. Um, yeah. 17:14.52 archpodnet Yeah. 17:20.56 Heather It shouldn't be. You know it's not the end. All be all and it's certainly not. You're right and you have to have the skill set to to be able to analyze what it is that you're looking at. 17:28.27 archpodnet Yeah, for sure. 17:30.65 Andrew Yeah, and notice you list. You listed really big things. You know what? I mean like okay, we're looking for this big in terms of any kind of fine grain you know approach it just in in my experience which is limited. Um, it was you know it's a lot of work for. 17:41.80 archpodnet Um, yeah. 17:45.57 archpodnet Um, yeah I mean like you said? Ah yeah. 17:46.64 Andrew Not that much return. 17:48.71 Doug But I found that with most ah most geophysics like Magnettrometry resitivity. Um, like I kind of feel like you get the map and you'd look at it and you're like oh there could be some stuff there. 17:53.30 Andrew Yeah. 18:03.69 Doug And sometimes I kind of feel like a run to a trap of where we try to make like it's It's almost a like a was a rosha. What's with with those ink blog. Ah things. Yeah I almost feel like at least for me at least for me. Why. 18:13.22 Andrew Grow Shark yeah. 18:14.62 archpodnet Rosak rosak. 18:15.52 Heather Warshak? yeah. 18:21.54 Doug Ah, why we do geophysics for anything and it doesn't matter what type it is I feel like like it's that where you're looking at it and you're like it's a blob and you're like yeah that's a ditch there or you know and then like but like I sorry Chris. 18:28.44 archpodnet Yeah, well it really takes ah a skilled analyst right? It takes a skilled analyst somebody who's seen these things before to say I know what the signature of this thing is my my friend Dan Bigman who runs bigman geophysics. 18:31.26 Andrew Yeah. 18:35.62 Heather A. 18:38.30 Andrew Um. 18:44.63 archpodnet That's what they do. In fact, they've gotten almost away from archeology because so many other industries need their gpr skills for like finding pipes under highways and stuff and and utilities locating and things like that and they're people his people just they've seen a thousand of them. They're just like oh that crazy little parabola that's ah, that's a pipe that's six inches wide 18:52.14 Heather Ah. 18:54.34 Andrew Um, yeah. 19:03.44 archpodnet Right? Like do they just know that because they've seen so many of them. Yeah, yeah for sure. Yeah. 19:04.70 Andrew Um, Ray yeah. 19:05.50 Heather Um, but you need to know the baseline too. You need to know what what you're working with. And yeah, there's a lot more to it than just sticking the machine on. 19:13.44 Andrew Yeah. 19:13.79 Doug Ah, no I've I've seen beautiful pictures where like Maggatrometry where like you see the outline of every building and every ditch and it it looks amazing and you're like but I just personally have never experienced it like ah every time doesn't matter what it is it just blobs. 19:18.23 archpodnet Um, yeah. 19:27.83 archpodnet Well yeah. 19:30.14 Doug And even after we excavate it where we think something is it's not there. But also like I'm in a part of the world where it doesn't work as well because high volcanic rock. So um, it can really mess up. Yeah, it's It's not a great place to try to do geophysics. Unfortunately. 19:38.45 archpodnet Um, yeah. 19:39.65 Heather Ah moisture 2 Yeah. 19:45.15 archpodnet All right? Well we're gonna end this segment but I'll just say if you don't know anything about geophysics and you're listening to this just take away 1 thing it's for finding features not anything else. You're not gonna find individual artifacts with shallo geophysics you're gonna find features. That's basically it all right? so. 19:57.45 Heather New. 19:59.19 Andrew There you go? yeah. 20:02.15 archpodnet Let's end this and go on to segment three back in a minute.