00:00.00 Chris Podcast episode 2 33 we're talking to blah blah blah. 00:00.14 archpodnet Okay, okay, welcome back to COurMPodcast episode 2 23 and we're here talk out. Okay, welcome back to seer. Yeah. 00:09.69 Chris 2 33 do do it 1 more time and it's the hold on on and it's the crm archeology podcast. 00:18.59 archpodnet Thank you all right? You just did this to make me look bad in front of wilder all right? Yes, but least not with me, you don't Chris could probably pull it off all right. 00:23.46 Chris Um, hey this takes practice. That's right. 00:26.59 Wouter Yperman Ah, that's why I don't do it life. 00:38.38 archpodnet So welcome back to Crm Archeology Podcast episode 2 33 and we're here with router eberman in Belgium he's a c m archaeologist in Belgium and we ended ah the last segment we are just kind of giving you a teaser talking about we're we're seeing a lot of. Ah, similarities between c or I archeology here in California and cm archeology in Belgium and you know one of the aspects. That's the same is definitely There is a a so chasm I guess between our academic archeology and c or m archeology and um routeter had. Talked about how you know very, it seems like there's very little archeology. It's done in flanders when in fact, that's not the case. It's there's quite a bit of work that's done in flanders. Um, but it's corm work and because as those of us that do see or m know we're all way too busy to be writing articles. Because we're writing actual um reports for cm that you know a lot of times the perception is that um even in California that some work is not being done when it really is and so um I was curious why that is and I was. Interested in hearing if it's if that similarity between um, why archeology? um, academic and academics in California don't do as much California archeology and if that's the same in Belgium. So I think i'm. I will ah punt it to either bill or Andrew since they're professors in California institutions and see what they think and then we'll talk to router. 02:19.52 succinctbill Yeah, I'm glad ah I'm glad you mentioned that because it you know so there's a there's always that tension right? between doing archeology and the place when you're a professor of the place where you've specialized and got your ph d and you're considered you know someone who has. Considerable knowledge in that area versus doing archeology in the location where the university is actually located so in California you know there are at least where I work there's several archeologists and groups of um grad students who are doing work in California and and you know that. A lot of that stuff is some of the more forward-facing work that's connected with communities and tribes and you know doing our very best to um, try to do the kind of work that gives back to this local area where the university is at in California but the other tension is the fact that. Universities tend to hire a range of different folks who have specialties in a lot of different areas and so we get faculty who did their ph d and have written books and um articles and done a lot of research on these different parts of the world and the idea you know I'm not really sure you know where this whole thing. Originally came from I have an idea that it was like a situation where you know the the university itself was thinking well if we get folks from all around the world then that gives students opportunities to learn from 1 individual who's doing work in all these different zones that they had carved out. But. You know I don't know if that really serves students as well as it could anymore, especially given what's going to come up in the near future in the United States with students being able to choose more be more selective between departments and in institutions you know we're already at the ph d level. It's it's totally moneyball there where. Students are weighing their choices and you know evaluating the ah faculty who are there and comparing offers and talking with other students and doing the very best they can to get the best deal when it comes to a ph d so the the era of. You know you know congratulations you got into the University Of Arizona bill you know this is the 1 place you wanted to go and here's just what we're going to give you students who can get into places like Arizona or Berkeley or ucla they can get into several different locations and they can really weigh those choices against each other. And 1 of the things they might consider is choosing a place that has several individuals who are working in California if they're from California and they want to stay here or you know going to an institution who has a better program of you know eastern european neolithic archeology if that's where they want to work and that's where they want. They're very interested in and they think they can make it. 05:01.40 succinctbill They might choose a department that has more faculty in that area. So I don't know if I don't know where we're headed in the future because the idea of having 8 faculty and each one of them works on a zone of the world I mean is that really going to keep ah students interested and wanting to go there or have in areas that are like super specialists in certain parts of the world. And they've got several scholars that are key players so that you can build a strong program that specializes in a certain area whereas you maybe don't have anyone you know it could be a California University that's really specialized on a certain part of the world Mesoamerica or something like that. And they just kind of don't have folks that are doing work in California and the the reasons behind all that stuff how these decisions like you know you would like to think that faculty and anthro departments are super rational individuals that use their knowledge of the human experience to make decisions you know based on previous. Failures and successes of the human race. But the reality is they're people just like you and they make you know information based on bounded rationality and we don't have all the information and stuff and then of course you add in you know. Ah, passion and emotion and other kinds of things that all the insidious stuff too that will go unmentioned but the politicking and the money behind the whole thing and that's how you end up with departments that are located in California but don't have a single archeologist that works in California. 06:25.00 Chris Yeah I just my ยข2 on I think why that perception is regarding. You know, being at a university and not necessarily working in that area I mean even for me somebody who's never in academic archeology aside from just you know getting a degree is I see. I see like the big private institutions. You know like Harvard and Stanford and stuff like that and then the the bigger state institutions like where you're at Bill like Berkeley I almost see those as like I would go there if I wanted to work outside of this country like that's the assumption that I would make without. Just like my perception of just like being a human in this world and and what I know that's where I would think to go there and I might go to some other I don't know less big state school or maybe even a smaller school if I wanted to to perhaps work locally that's based on total fiction right? like that's not even real. But that's like my perception of it and I wonder if other people have that perception too and I'm I'm wondering what? ah. 07:20.78 Andrew Kinkella I think I think it's actually kind of real. 07:21.78 succinctbill Well yeah, yeah, good for Andrew because yeah, you're exactly right? I mean those schools like that have the capacity to have scholars that do esoteric work and so if you were going to do that kind of stuff and that's really what you were interested in I mean ah I don't want to take space from others. But. 07:22.50 archpodnet I Yeah I think it is a real I Absolutely think that? yeah. 07:32.58 Chris Me. 07:40.34 succinctbill Yeah, you're you're exactly right? That's where you would find those folks and. 07:40.67 Chris Um. 07:42.23 archpodnet yeah yeah I mean there's there's a myriad of different reasons I mean the uc schools now are starting to move away from you know, having artifacts sprites within their repositories that are California archeology and we're restoring to you know that's. 07:55.73 Chris Um. 08:00.98 archpodnet Definitely going to impact the amount of California archaeologists that you're going to get in a uc school. So I think it's shifting to what we would what we call cal state or I think I do think that you definitely have ah a much more focus on the actual state that you're in in state universities. 08:04.26 Chris Sure. 08:20.00 archpodnet At least I've seen that in a few of the different states where you're more you know r 1 schools are you know more focused internationally and your skate state schools are focused on more you know state archeology. Um, you know I you see a lot of students that. Want the sexiness of that international and plus it's you know it's fun. It's just like Bill was saying I mean the the human disposition is to want to learn, especially if an anthropologist you want to learn about other cultures. Um, and I think sometimes people are very narrow minded and don't realize that there are a lot of cultures right? where you are. 08:50.19 Chris Yeah. 08:58.86 archpodnet Um, but and so you know that sounds like fun. But then when it comes down to actually getting a job. It can sometimes at least in crm make it more difficult if you were not working in that area and I know that in and to bring water back into this conversation I know that. Just because I've always had this desire to work internationally like in Ireland or England and I know that it's difficult to it seems like there's a lot more obstacles to work as a Cr archeologist at least in some of these other countries without having a significant amount of. Experience you have to be licensed and I'm curious is belgian the same way. 09:42.33 Wouter Yperman Well, um, in Belgium there are um, a few major universities that supply archeologists for flounders that is ah leuven ah hand and to minor degree brussels I'm going to get into trouble with my colleagues if I don't mention in Brussels. Um. So um, the 2 the 2 major ah universities which is leuvin and Ghen Leuvin is historically more focused on the mediterranean area which means the roman ah the the Greek the eastern neares and the egyptian archeology so that university within the students is more focused. Do that area. The classical archaeology. Um, while the other University The University of kent it's more focused deliberately on the national archaeology. So um, we have archaeologists academic archeologists who are doing work in flanders. There are also. Of course like ah like everybody said there are a lot of archaeologists academic ones that do not work in flanders that work abroad like in in Egypt in turkey in in italy and so on but generally speaking because Belgium is is such a small country. Um. And the students who finish their education here if you want to have a job in cm archeology now and you are willing to work in serre now if you finish ah your education you can have a job in serm archeology. Before 2016 and especially before 2000 and and 6 it was more difficult like I've got an archaeological degree well congratulations and what are you going to do because archaeology is out of the question we need about 5 a year. Um, so that was difficult and oh I might work in italy or turkey I might have ever ph d. Ah, to be able to do that but nowadays I mean as as university you you really have to focus on on the national archaeology not because of of nationalistic feelings. But just it's the reality the crm is where your archaeology archaeology students are going to work. 11:52.28 Chris I have. 11:53.78 Wouter Yperman So you have to train them for them and the University of gant is is better suited for that because they have historically focused more on the national archeology I've started in Loun Um, they're both good universities but that's that's a different focus point that they have. 12:11.38 Chris So okay, oh okay, nice. So it's yeah sira we have a few universities that are doing c around. There's a number of them on the East Coast and there used to be more but there's definitely yeah. 12:13.25 Wouter Yperman And both universities have a spinoff company. Ah which is doing seram archeology within flanders. 12:18.48 archpodnet If we have that too now a few now. Yes, but they're closing up. Yeah man. 12:30.52 Chris Exactly like we were I worked on a serum project that was being taken over they were taken over a big project that the University Of Massachusetts was running and I was like floored by that was like wait a minute they're like running it as like a c or m program is like oh okay, which leads me to a question. Um, what or what. 12:39.92 archpodnet And. 12:47.70 Chris I guess with with more of a focus on Crm and and national archaeology you know and especially in the last few years if somebody did like if you were mentoring at a school or something like that and somebody says I want to do archaeology here. What are the actual requirements are are you well not only what are the requirements but are there programs starting to develop. 12:57.57 Wouter Yperman And. 13:06.57 Chris Focusing around national archeology in particular like we have some crm specific masters programs in this country now but still not a lot but we have some. It's still mostly people when they become a field tech. They're just getting a degree in archeology studying whatever and then they get into crm and then they might go into a. Ah, Crm focused masters and they might not um, it's not necessarily a requirement but is there programs like that and and and what are the requirements for somebody to get into this field. 13:31.60 Wouter Yperman Um, well historically speaking if if you wanted to go into archeology and I get that question often is oh you have to learn Latin No, you don't have to learn Latin because if you're not doing any archaeology linked to the Roman empire. 13:39.31 Chris Oh. 13:48.94 Wouter Yperman You don't get into contact with Latin I mean I never did Latin um and a few writings in Latin There are just yeah abbreviations and terminology you learn very fast so base there there is no um, ah you if you want to go work in in Seram archaeology. You have to be willing to work. 13:56.20 Chris Yeah. 14:06.47 Chris Okay. 14:08.90 Wouter Yperman Period and it it really doesn't matter what you've done at University Of course if you've done a program which is more focused on on the National Archeology. You've got you've got an advantage but it's not a great Advantage. So It's not like like I have done My Master's thesis on on a subject in the near Eastern Archeology which is completely useless for what I'm doing now. But it's not because I've done that that I've got a disadvantage. Um, the people who have worked with with real ah materials like with with the pottery. 14:30.66 Chris Well. 14:42.24 Wouter Yperman Um, of like medieval pottery and Roman Poty that can be found here in Belgium they've got slight advantage at the start but generally speaking it doesn't matter what kind of education you have once you've done your master degree. You can go into crm. Um, so unlike like in american archaeology where. 14:55.54 Chris Okay. 15:00.96 Wouter Yperman You've done your bachelor's and then maybe your master um here in in Belgium in flandunders. It's just you do your bachelor and then you do your master this this nobody questioning that ah part of is course the education system is is a lot more affordable here. Um, so it's it's out of the question. 15:02.20 Chris Um. 15:08.37 Chris M. 15:19.41 Wouter Yperman You do your bachelor then you do your master and then you go off to work and if you want to do Cm archeology just at this moment we are not really hat hunting. Um, but we we are getting close where we actually are ah you know if that's it You know you you. 15:21.29 Chris Wow. 15:28.64 Chris Um. 15:38.22 Wouter Yperman But on your website likes say we are looking for archeologists ten years ago you got literally dozens of applicants. Now you got lucky if you got 1 or 2 So if you want to do archeology in Belgium and you've got the degree. You're welcome. Of course you have to speak touch. 15:46.50 Chris Um. 15:55.55 Chris Speak Speak dutch and read Latin That's not very hard. Yeah, totally okay. 15:55.60 Wouter Yperman Because all the reporting isn't Dutch but no, no, you don't have to. 15:56.47 succinctbill Um, yeah, ah I hope maybe I'll have my wife listen to this episode actually because she did her graduate studies in the Netherlands so she speaks Dutch and. 16:10.10 Wouter Yperman So she speaks. Yeah, we've been figuring look things here I I what. 16:12.85 succinctbill We've been figuring looking at multiple gambits like every time we have an election and you know I don't know some crazy party gets elected. We're like how can we get out of the United States how can we leave and then and then you know everything goes back to what it was before and then every time they get so you may find in 2024 that i'm. 16:18.12 Wouter Yperman Create our like. 16:25.39 Wouter Yperman For and then I think so you may find it 24 4 send you know like know out how you know? well she? ah. 16:31.00 succinctbill Send you an email like so anyway you know out or hot it. Ah how can I get over there. Ah but ah oh go ahead. 16:42.15 Wouter Yperman Yeah, no so that you have to you have to really speak Dutch because everything all the reporting is on and Dutch. Ah, it's it's not like imagine your your an archaeology you're from England and you want to work here but you can do the digging pot but we ah. Demand from our archaeologists that they are able to do everything from the digging part to to the reporting. So if yeah because you have to fill in the database on the site and that's all in Dutch. So if you don't speak Dutch. Well you can only do the digging part and then it's a. 17:01.53 archpodnet Yes. 17:15.43 Wouter Yperman It's a shame to have somebody with with a degree to only be able to do the digging part. Yeah um, here you. 17:20.53 succinctbill I guess I'll get on it. But my my question is how come how come you're getting so few applicants is that just folks aren't they don't want to do archeology anymore or just folks aren't going to college for archeology or or everyone in Europe is employed doing archeology and before you could get folks from the Netherlands France. 17:28.18 Wouter Yperman Spoke arere debt in the hate folks are all. 17:39.96 succinctbill Elsewhere You know, but now you have to just rely on folks that are local. 17:42.19 Wouter Yperman Ah, yeah, so in in the past we got a lot of archaeologists forlanders who were getting a degree and they were and so elsewhere like in the Netherlands where they speak the same language but also in England and and in Ireland there's a lot of there but now it's it's really. Everybody who has a degree in archaeology speaks Dutch and wants to work in archaeology has a job in archaeology so there is simply nobody left to employ anymore. So but you know we we get along and. That also means that if you are students and we get students which we have to train for their for their practical part. Um, we are looking at them. So it's your last year. Yeah, right? You're doing a good job if you finish just you know, come back and and have a talk. We might have a job for you? um. 18:28.19 archpodnet Oh. 18:37.67 Wouter Yperman We have also employed students who did not have their degree yet because they had to finish their thesis. Ah but they they could start working you know, full-time part-time. Um, normally you would think Well oh that's an engineer you know you you got you got the job before you got your degree while an engineer or being an archaeologist. So it's ah. 18:41.48 archpodnet Um, yeah, yeah. 18:41.53 Chris He. 18:57.69 Wouter Yperman It's a really strange world Nobody would have expected that a decade ago that you would go hat-hunting archeologists and and and get a job before you got a degree and you know it's It's crazy. 19:07.57 archpodnet I see I think you know right now. It's really hard to hire people. So so um, you know we just have a ah ah ah, real dearth of of archeologists specific archeologists like you said would or they can they can do everything. 19:12.14 Wouter Yperman Yeah. 19:24.64 archpodnet That is definitely an area that that is lacking at least here in America but um I'm really enjoying that we have so many similarities between the two I think we're going to take it to segment 3 and see if we can dig a little deeper and see if we can find some of the differences. 19:27.90 Wouter Yperman Thats what ands I'm really thrill that. Yeah, some similarities to do I Think we're going to fix this like free and' a biggest feature. My.