00:00.00 archpodnet Welcome back to the architect podcast episode two zero five and we're talking about mapping online environments and the the first question for this paper that you guys were trying to answer was basically can it be done is is this even possible and to your shock and surprise it can be done and and relative. Yeah. 00:15.59 Sara Um, that that was. 00:19.10 archpodnet I mean once you figured it out. It sounds fairly replicatable and and I think that this this shouldn't be too hard. You're just following those steps to to reproduce this in in most environments. So. There were 3 other I guess future questions though that are building off of this one and I'm just going to go ahead and read those out so we have a frame of reference for this segment. And then we'll talk about that so point number two is can the study of human interactive virtual environments contribute to the understanding of past human behavior can it contribute to the development of an abm model number 3 is how can we preserve temporary evidence of human occupation within a landscape that changes so quickly and number 4 would people behave differently in a virtual landscape than they would in a physical one. Are there any cultural biases in a player. Agent's behavior or in the developer's choice so that is the ultimate goal of this project is to essentially answer those 4 questions. Really it all comes down to the you know all kind of comes down to the last question to be honest. I'm wondering. Let's just talk big picture. We don't have to break all of those down but let's just talk really big picture here and I'm really interested in the would people behave differently in a virtual landscape I'm going to go ahead and say probably yes right off the bat because normally you don't shoot people in the head on a daily basis and normally you know you're not, you're not behaving the way you are. 01:30.14 Sara Um, is. 01:32.64 Andrew Reinhard Well fit's but know that that that's not yeah, that's not really the question though that that the question is will they behave differently in a landscape and in the way I interpreted that question was. 01:36.73 archpodnet I Mean some people do, but normally you know. 01:39.22 Sara Um. 01:44.13 archpodnet Okay, so um. 01:52.30 Andrew Reinhard You know there's a mountain in the game. How do we go up the mountain. Um, as opposed to behaving badly on the mountain. 01:53.79 Sara Are. 01:59.47 archpodnet Ah, right right? Got you got you? Well, even then I mean a lot of times you can fly You can teleport. You can do different things because of the game mechanics right. 02:07.53 Andrew Reinhard Oh yeah, yeah, the digital physics are are awesome and yeah, they're either good or bad depending on on if you're studying them or if you're using them. 02:10.21 Sara Um, yeah, um. 02:16.86 archpodnet Yeah, well in no man sky you can just flip over to I can't remember what it's called, but you can just tunnel right through the mountain too. Yeah, so so what is the I'm I'm trying to figure out what is the ultimate value here then you know to to study this. 02:25.83 Sara Um. 02:26.61 Andrew Reinhard Um, yes. 02:36.31 archpodnet Information I mean one of your points is can we use this to to look at the past and I did like in your article Um, near the end of it when you were really talking about big picture here you know equating equating what we can see in the virtual landscape with. And being able not not equating I said observing what we can see in the visual in the virtual landscape and then having the ability to actually talk to the people who created that ultimately to find out. Maybe what motivations were because we can't do that to people in the past right as archaeologists. All we can do is observe the past and you know make our best guest based on. 03:08.36 Andrew Reinhard Um, yeah, yeah. 03:11.27 archpodnet Ah, based on information. But with here we can observe something and say hey why'd you do that? You know what's the point there and and try to apply that to something in the past. Do you think that's still possible with the like you said the massive digital physics of the online world and and how different it is. 03:20.54 Andrew Reinhard Um, now this is I I think so um I mean you know and I hate to say the real world in the physical world I Guess you can talk to descendant communities and. 03:24.75 Sara Um, so. 03:31.12 archpodnet Yeah. 03:37.12 Andrew Reinhard Ah, they can tell you things that have been passed down or they can give you the interpretations of the landscapes in which they live that have yeah that exhibit features from antiquity. Um, however, however, you know soon and or long ago that was. Um, with the digital games. You know you can certainly engage with the player community. You know as long as you identify yourself and what you're doing and get permission and all of that and behave in an ethical way. Um, and this happened with the noman sky archeological project where you know you would talk to people who were like day one players and they would be building and stuff and they would tell you how it was like. And then you might talk to people who join the game two or three years later and they don't have that initial lived experience. They have a history because they have a wiki and a Reddit and stuff like that and then you know they hang out with some of the old timers. You know, but that's only been three years but you know in a game that's that's ancient history um and so. 04:12.63 archpodnet M. 04:30.11 Andrew Reinhard You know, being able to document in the beginning and then dipping your toe back in the water you know after a year after six months or something is always great because things are changing at such an advanced rate and you know we're not looking at big data. You know we're looking at little data you know as as Jeremy Huggett says um and you know when you but when you when you put it all together. You're able to create this historical picture. Granted 1 that's been created in real-time over just a few years as opposed to eonms. 05:00.33 archpodnet Interesting. Do you think that this question for both of you I guess you know when you start documenting stuff like this. You know you start getting these landscapes documented you start making you know doing other studies. Based on those models because you know usually the first step in any archaeological project is mapping right? So this is how we're approaching this and once once you start documenting this world and you start making it I don't know you start you start putting it into the archeological record so to speak. It's not even so to speak this really is the archaeological record. It's just the digital archaeological record. Do you think there will be a time or do you know if anybody's thinking about protecting some of these worlds. You know we have the national register of historic places and one of the things that is important for the criteria on the nh and Rhp is not only data so important things about humans. But. Architectural things. Um you know, unique architecture, unique people and and unique events right? Those are basically the the 4 criteria. Well these online worlds are important for as you mentioned in the case of fortnite I mean literally hundreds of millions of people right. And you look at the whole gaming community and it's and it's billions of people so these are really important things where really important things are happening that are shaping. People's lives in the in the physical world in some cases you know whether it be success through their you know through you know, egaming and things like that or are the things. Do you think there's any. 06:29.84 archpodnet Validity here for protection of these worlds in the future and and I'm wondering if the ah the the developers would fight that now that would actually look if the government tried to take over no man sky. 06:38.20 Andrew Reinhard um um I have a quick answer and and then and then Sarah um, the ah I always thought like the internet archive should be a Unesco world heritage site. 06:38.56 Sara Um, yeah. 06:49.94 archpodnet Um. 06:55.84 Andrew Reinhard Ticks all the boxes for Unesco World Heritage site albeit it's a digital space and whenever the United States decides to rejoin unesco because I don't think they have yet. Um, then we'll be able to nominate the internet archive for that. 06:56.23 archpodnet Um, for sure. 07:00.96 Sara Um, Smith. 07:04.37 archpodnet M. 07:12.40 Andrew Reinhard Um, you know there there are actually physical monuments. There's there's one that was built in Iceland ah to commemorate something from eve online and then there are in-game memorials like make a- wish stuff. Um in various games like wow for example, where um, you have ah. 07:23.87 archpodnet M. 07:28.72 Andrew Reinhard You know you have these permanent spaces that the developers put in you know to honor something or to honor an event and then you've also got commemorative blogs and wikis for all kinds of stuff and there's actually a history of Memorial building. A no man sky. You know people building things in on our family members. You know with the understanding that these will persist at least for a while and so yeah I think that. 07:46.31 archpodnet I'm sure. 07:48.30 Andrew Reinhard You know some kind of designation would be great. Um, and you know why not azeroff you know is a protected space I don't know I mean they had to bring back the vanilla server um due to popular demand and so you know that just seems to be a case in point of what people want and need and they want to revisit and have nostalgia and all that stuff. 07:59.63 archpodnet Ah. 08:07.82 Andrew Reinhard Sarah. 08:09.77 Sara Um, yeah, um I think they should be um, protected and preserved I think my mind is going just off to how because the data will be so massive and as we mentioned before. 08:21.85 archpodnet Right. 08:25.88 Sara The landscape changes so fast that I'm not sure how we could practically do it I'm thinking about you know the practical and like if I if I was to record this like I can't fly drones all the time on top of people buildings and. 08:33.12 archpodnet E. 08:44.40 Sara You know it's hard to collect everything. So I don't know what the practical way to do it. The best 1 will be um but I think it should like ah it for just you know I I think it would be very important because they are. 08:53.78 archpodnet It's. 09:01.92 Sara Um, manifestation of people behavior and so for anthropological and archeological. Um, you know studies they they should definitely be recorded. 09:11.80 archpodnet Well these these worlds too. They almost sort of as an analogy follow the heisenberg uncertainty principle where they don't really exist until you're observing them right? They're just ones and Zeros in a hard drive until you're in there. So so what does preservation even look like does it have to be preserved So so anybody can. 09:22.68 Sara Um, exactly. Um. 09:31.18 archpodnet Enter the world through some sort of portal like ah like a video game machine or something like that or do they need to be preserved so way people you know aren't in that world can see like they're looking at the world through ah through a Tv screen you know. 09:38.33 Andrew Reinhard Um, yeah, that's that's that's been one of my goals when I was doing my ph d you know that was part of 1 of the case studies is. 09:40.41 Sara No no. 09:51.28 Andrew Reinhard What's the lowest common denominator of access that we can provide so people can see what it is that we're talking about you know so it could be just stereometric $5 goggles 09:52.69 archpodnet No. 10:04.43 Andrew Reinhard You know and you've got a split screen that you're watching on Youtube or something and for some folks that'll be enough and it records the audio granted it's a guided tour. Um, you know you're not able to look around and I've tried and failed to do like a 3 60 vr inside a video game where we could do. 10:09.45 archpodnet Yeah. 10:21.56 Andrew Reinhard You know, go where you want kind of stuff without actually having to use the game. Um, so you know that's that's important. Um, and and you're right? You know a lot of these games, especially procedural ones. They don't generate until you arrive and then you have. Interfered with the with the space even though the space is brand new and what does that mean ethically I I don't know and then you're also writing that archeologists are actually the leaders in creating um the digital archeological record you know hats off to tdar. But you know. Um, where there is no archaeological record until we show up and all of a sudden there is one and so what does that mean you know for ethics and and and for what it is that we're communicating and if we go there first and people follow us what have we done. It's weird. It's like Dr who or something it's. 10:57.83 Sara Um. 10:58.40 archpodnet Brett. 11:06.86 archpodnet Ah, right. 11:10.57 Andrew Reinhard Weird or black mirror. Yeah, but. 11:11.94 archpodnet Ah, so we've only got a few minutes left in this I know right? We've only got a few minutes left in this episode so where are you guys with number two talking about the study of human interactive virtual environment contributing to the understanding of past human behavior. 11:12.35 Sara Um. 11:29.60 archpodnet Are you guys in in process on on doing some research on this. 11:35.42 Andrew Reinhard No, um ah I'm not I've got 2 books that I'm revising for berghan um, the ah the yeah, the. 11:36.60 Sara Um, no yet is. 11:38.91 archpodnet Ah, all right short and simple. Ah. 11:47.91 archpodnet Yes. 11:53.82 Andrew Reinhard Basically what we wanted to do is to create this methodology of digital space specifically for people to play around with agent-based modeling here's a landscape here's how you can map it. You can put your agents in there and it doesn't have to be a game. It can be a digitally created space. You know that you. Put in parameters or different rules to make it look a certain way or behave a certain way and then you let your agents run around and do stuff and then you can tweak that and see what happens. Um our methodology allows you to do that with the spaces that you create digitally in support of your Abm work which is the real goal now I haven't and Sarah I don't know if you have haven't. Tried that yet with abms um I'm hoping maybe Sean Graham might if you're listening or Stephanie Crabtree um you know, moving forward. 12:36.80 Sara Um. 12:42.34 archpodnet Okay. 12:53.95 archpodnet All right? sorry I thought I'd lost you guys for a second there. So so just in the last few minutes here. Yeah indeed. Um, so I Just we got a couple minutes left. Let me get your guys' final thoughts on this on I don't know what you think. 12:57.13 Sara Um, no I'm here. 12:58.20 Andrew Reinhard Um, no, we're just we shy. 13:04.63 Sara Um. 13:09.10 archpodnet What you? what you want people to get out of this paper and and moving forward. Um, we'll start with you. Sarah. 13:16.68 Sara Yeah, um I think what I would like the people to get what I got out of it and so start thinking about video games and digital spaces whether they are you know, fixed or um, generated. Um, as um places not where to play and have fun but like thinking about you know as ah as world where you start living it and when you you know your action kind of have consequences for you. The landscape the environment that you're in and also for other players. So. Start thinking how you interact with the things and the people that you meet in the digital space on top of just having fun and played the game by itself. Um, and so be more aware that that is still um, creating archaeological record. For other people eventually in the future possibly to look at and and study. 14:15.20 archpodnet Okay, Andrew. 14:20.37 Andrew Reinhard Okay, yeah, Um, for for me the the main goal was to demonstrate that even though digital Landscapes are a relatively new medium. Um an archeological medium. That you don't have to really change all that much. What you do as an archaeologist and the tools that you use if you're using drones if you're using, Um, yeah, modeling software If you're using. Yeah Gis Software. You can still follow those steps and still use Those materials. In digital spaces as well as in terrestrial ones. Um, and so you know that was really one of the overarching goals for me is to demonstrate that you don't have to be a gamer in order to participate in doing this kind of digital archeology. Ah especially Archeology. That's done in a digital space. 15:04.48 archpodnet Sure, Okay, well that's about all the time we have thanks guys for coming on I hope that when you continue this research in the future we can bring you guys back on to to have a follow up discussion. Thanks a lot for coming on the show. 15:19.17 Sara Um, thank you for having us Bye bye. 15:19.32 Andrew Reinhard Um, yeah, thanks again. 15:20.30 archpodnet All right? and we'll see everybody else next time.