00:00.00 archpodnet And 1 of those articles is entitled photogrammetry and gis in human occupied digital landscapes written by Andrew Reinhard and Sarah Zya and we have both of them on the show today. Welcome to the show Andrew and Sarah yeah, so ah. 00:11.93 Andrew Reinhard Um, well thanks for having us. 00:13.60 Sara Um, hi E Thank you for having us. 00:18.49 archpodnet We'll get to both of you in a second and we'll get to the article in a second. But Andrew I wanted to ask you real quick because some people may know your name from I mean multiple episodes of different programs. You've been on on the archeology podcast network. But also you were 1 of the founding members of the hosts for the archaeo gaming podcast that we had on the apn. Which I still want to restart if anybody's listening to this that feed is still. There. Anybody wants to do an archeo gaming podcast and be the host just contact me and we'll get that going but I'm wondering how have you been in the archeo gaming space since then have you stayed in that space is that a primary focus for you. 00:40.49 Andrew Reinhard Um. 00:54.57 archpodnet Or is it just ah, an interest that you keep coming back to. 00:58.24 Andrew Reinhard Yeah, you know it's interesting. Um, it's no longer a primary focus especially since I got the ph d from the University Of York back in 2020 um and so I've got one foot in archo gaming and then another foot squarely in. Ah. 01:04.93 archpodnet M. 01:14.15 Andrew Reinhard I would say digital built environments that aren't necessarily games so basically software um and virtual Worlds video games and stuff like that. Basically any place that human beings are present. And they're leaving evidence of material culture settlement and abandonment in a digital Space. You'll find me there So So ah, games is part of that equation but you know really like with this article this was a pivot from going from strictly video game archeology into something that could be applied. 01:33.12 archpodnet Nice. 01:47.55 Andrew Reinhard To other kinds of digital things where people you know quote unquote live. So I still still even keep in touch with my colleagues and friends and everything. Um I I run the archaeo gaming mastodon account since we nuked the Twitter account and I'm currently a board member for ah ah. 01:51.41 archpodnet Okay. 02:01.94 archpodnet Um, right. 02:06.82 Andrew Reinhard Saving ancient studies alliance or a sassa. 02:07.80 archpodnet Awesome! sounds good and Sarah what brings you to the to the to the archeo gaming sphere I don't know if this article really belongs in archeo gaming I mean it does because like you said Andrew it's it's applicable. You know, bringing real-world techniques into the digital. Um, the gaming sphere. But Sarah what brings you to this space before we really get into the article. 02:30.93 Sara Ah, yeah, so I'm um I'm a spatial archeologist and I just finished my Ph D Um, and I'm also a gamer. So I really enjoy playing video games and I mostly enjoy the games that have ah an archeological background. Um and a flavor. 02:42.93 archpodnet Nice. 02:47.69 Sara Um, so I I think ah I bring the technical ni part into the article. Um, but I really really enjoyed it. Um, it gave me a different perspective of you know gaming and whenever now I play into you know I play video games I kind of look at this. Face and the traces that I found on a different light. 03:09.20 archpodnet Okay, so let's talk about the article then um, again, this is in the advances in archeological practice and we will link to this article. You do need a login to see it because it's part of the um, the essay the society for American Archeology. Ah, but. There are typically ways around that if you want to get a copy of the Article. Oh is it? Ah Okay, oh I didn't know that because I logged in to go download it and I didn't even I didn't even Notice. So. 03:27.14 Andrew Reinhard Yeah, we actually this is actually um, ah open access. We got golden access paid for through New York University so people can look at it even though it's on the site. It's totally free to view. 03:30.30 Sara Um, yeah, yeah. 03:43.70 archpodnet Okay, well,, that's good. Um, so we'll link to it anyway and and seriously go download it because there's some. Ah, there's some really good stuff in here including the references and some some images that will be handy actually as you're listening to this so look down at your show notes. There'll be a link to the article. And you can bring that up while you're listening to the show. Hopefully you're not driving or doing survey or anything like that. So you know, be careful but all right? So Let's get into this. Um this article that we find out a little bit later in the article is actually part of a a multi-step process that you guys are doing to. 04:03.10 Andrew Reinhard Um. 04:04.88 Sara Um, let's ah. 04:15.62 archpodnet You know to? we'll we'll talk about that the the the other steps but why don't one of you just explain what this what this step 1 is and give me the ah you know the elevator pitch or abstract version of the the purpose of this article you guys can decide. 04:27.60 Andrew Reinhard Okay, um I yeah um I'll start and then Sarah you can kind of backfill for me. Um, with yeah with the ah. 04:34.14 Sara Sure. 04:39.70 Andrew Reinhard You know, dealing with digital games and and and and working with ah digital kind of Landscape archeology. Um, you know it's really difficult to kind of pinpoint where things are happening. So if if somebody builds something in a game if somebody ah you know, put something up. You know whether it's a fortification or a residence or they they they put they put some kind of material evidence of of their visit in a digital space. Um, you know there's no Coordinates. You know there's no north. Yeah, some. It's kind of Fake North Southeast West There's kind of a fakeky grid but there's no gis because we're dealing with these procedurally generated spaces or designed spaces that are independent of the grid that covers the earth and so I'm like well. 05:12.97 archpodnet Ah. 05:25.11 archpodnet Right. 05:28.23 Andrew Reinhard You know if we're going to do some archaeology and we especially if we want to do landscape archaeology. We probably need to pinpoint where things are happening precisely in the environment I wonder if we can do that. And so you know knowing full. Well I do not have the technical expertise you know with with Gis um, and and you know with mapping software. Although I play around with qgis a little bit um or or working with point clouds or dems digital elevation models. Um, you know I know the words but I don't know how to. 05:39.88 archpodnet Ah. 05:57.59 Andrew Reinhard Do them and so I reached out back when but back when I had a Twitter yeah before the hostile takeover there by Musk and cast around and Sarah's like sure. 06:09.40 archpodnet Yeah. 06:09.90 Andrew Reinhard Ah, so so Sarah you want to you want to fill in where where what caught your eye and and and what you brought to the article as well. 06:19.25 Sara Sure, um, well since I was um I think it was a few years ago I started to get interested in arto gaming and so of course I ran into andrew's. 06:32.40 Sara Blog website and I started reading and so his name was like a big name in my head and so I started to follow him a tradeor and then I saw ah what I was scrolling down his his tweet and I I was kind of you know. Shy at the beginning to reply so I was like well you know I'm like you know I'm a future student I'm sure that is a long long line to work with Andrew he's not gonna listen to me you know and then I went back a couple of days after and I said to myself about if you don't try. You would never know but the tweet. 07:04.67 archpodnet Exactly. 07:08.35 Sara It was cao at that point and or I couldn't find it anymore. So I think I D and do and say hey I I saw you treat D still need someone to to do some Ds and that's you know the rest is history I suppose. 07:20.31 archpodnet Nice. 07:21.81 Andrew Reinhard Yeah, absolutely you know so the the theory was can we make actual usable. Yeah maps you know Topographic Maps dems you know from point clouds that we gather on these spaces that don't exist on earth and if so how do we do that. And if we figure out how to do that we should probably write it up so that other people can do it too. 07:44.94 archpodnet All right? So we'll get into your methodology on that probably in the next segment. But first I want to talk about the games. You guys decided to use for this now. No man sky and fortnite are the 2 games very different games and. I've actually played no man sky I haven't played fortnite but I know of it and and what it's all about. But I'm curious about the games before we get to why you chose those I'm curious about the games that didn't make the list because again another game I haven't played but that first came to mind when you were talking about ah like a persistent online world. That's that's changed by players is world of Warcraft. I feel like it's been around since I don't know the late 90 s early two thousand s or something like that I don't even know if it's still around but that seems like something that has one of the longest histories. Do you know in your research, what gaming environment has the longest online continuous history. Did you find that in your research. 08:36.21 Andrew Reinhard Oh Geez I don't know I'll get myself into trouble by being you know, but by by being wrong. Um, but you know I'm thinking of things like never winter nights or everquest. Um. 08:39.54 Sara This this. 08:42.36 archpodnet Ah, sure be just be close. Yeah. 08:48.90 Andrew Reinhard And you know things going back into the 90 s you know there's going to be stuff from way way back and you know this includes you know things like yeah persistent digital spaces and environments like second life and stuff like that. So you know those places and you know they let you craft but you really can't. 09:02.89 archpodnet Um. 09:07.85 Andrew Reinhard Build and you know So yeah, we we could have done Wow Um, you know because that's been around you know for a very freaking long time. Um I actually let my account slip. 09:15.85 archpodnet Yeah. 09:20.60 Andrew Reinhard I I quit I rage quit when Mistappanderia came out because I'm like you can't change the law like that. What are you doing? And yeah I was just a big nerd. Um, but you know with wow it's proprietary and you've got to pay you know in order to do this in fortnites free. 09:35.80 archpodnet Um. 09:37.88 Andrew Reinhard And no man sky you still have to pay as well. But it's yeah I I might have given it a moment's thought you know I was thinking maybe pub g or maybe um eve online or something like that. But you know these are the 2 games that I was really familiar with personally. 09:44.41 archpodnet Um, yeah, sure. 09:53.78 archpodnet Yes, second life I kind of forgot about that I still have an account I don't think I've logged into second life in years, but every it's still there every time I get a new computer and it's like faster and better. Um, you know I've got ah I've got the m one Mac now and I'll have the m two yet. But every time I get a new one I'm like. 09:59.27 Andrew Reinhard Um, it's It's still there. 10:12.15 archpodnet Well let's see how second life plays and I just I head over there for a second see what it looks like and then I leave and I don't go back until I get a new computer. Um, but that that world is crazy. Yeah. 10:15.91 Sara Um, a slip. 10:19.60 Andrew Reinhard Yeah, ah, let me let me let me tell you let me tell you a really quick story. Um, and I logged into second life a few years ago and I hadn't been in for about five or six years and I I used to have a villa in the roman s p qr sim. When I worked for bull chee carducci publishers doing Greek and latin stuff and the people I saw five years ago were still there and they were still building and they remembered me and they gave me a tour to show me what was new and it just totally blew my mind. 10:34.39 archpodnet That's. 10:44.98 archpodnet Wow Wow I mean there are speaking of online Worlds I mean there are real people that just like I mean practically live in second life I don't even know if they're second life anymore. It's almost their first life. You know what? I mean yeah, it's ah it's a lot so all right? so. 10:48.54 Sara In. 10:55.85 Andrew Reinhard Um, yeah, no there is there is yeah. 11:01.80 Sara Um, yeah. 11:03.24 archpodnet Let's get to no man sky and fortnite. Why did you guys choose those games to to do your mapping experiment. 11:10.77 Andrew Reinhard Um, so you know this goes back into you know, like why? why do archaeo gaming in the first place. Um, and the fact that we're using video games as a vernacular for digital spaces people understand games. They know what games are. 11:18.66 archpodnet Um. 11:26.25 Andrew Reinhard They know what they're called. They see them advertised. So if we can start there is kind of ah the low hanging fruit. Um, then we can gently move people towards other digital spaces spaces that are a bit weird. You know. So ultimately I'd love to do a gis. You know, survey of Microsoft word or something. Ah, but that's but nobody wants that. You know they want to see a game so I was like okay, fine. You know'll'll we'll do the game. Um, so fortnite you know is played by Tens of millions of players around the world. All the freaking time and the island changes know year to year season to season. 11:54.82 archpodnet Yeah. 11:59.89 Andrew Reinhard Um, and so it's nice to see those changes and people do kind of the same thing when they go in you know they build fortifications to protect themselves and they move around and it's really really fast so you can get a really good data set in about 20 minutes um and then for no man sky again. Wildly popular game played by millions. 12:13.53 archpodnet Ah. 12:17.36 Andrew Reinhard And it's a procedurally generated space and so are like well can you map a space that's never existed before until you log In. Um and so you know we figured those are 2 yeah games that people know a lot of people have played at least they're familiar with it. And they allow us a couple of different variables to tinker with when we're mapping. 12:37.78 archpodnet What I mean regarding fortnite. What is the value. Do you think I mean sure if it's just a thought x experiment. It's can you map a procedurally generated space that doesn't exist after it's been used. Um, then that's a question right? And if that's the only question you're asking then. Yeah, that's a yes or no question. We can do this or we can't but I'm wondering like what? what if you can like what's the value in that you know what I mean with with something that persists and is around for years. Let's say that I can I can really see but like you know fortnite the the world's gone in what 20 minutes or something like that from my understanding. Ah, what do you think? the. 13:01.70 Andrew Reinhard Um, outer. 13:08.91 Andrew Reinhard Yeah, well this now this is this is the this is the main question and this is the question that really bugs me as a digital archeologist and what keeps me up at night because it gives me nightmares. It's like all of this digital. 13:12.41 Sara Um, you know. 13:12.43 archpodnet The end value could be there or you're not answering that question yet. 13:26.59 Andrew Reinhard Occupation all of this digital construction software is coming and going. You know these rounds last 20 minutes and then are gone without a trace and so you know if you're a digital archeologist and you're not on the ground recording things as they happen. That'll be that stuff will be gone. Um, and so you know by. 13:44.46 archpodnet Ah. 13:46.55 Andrew Reinhard By documenting. You know these very discreet very fast happenings. We can then build a dataset and I was I was telling Sarah earlier that you know for me this is it's a emerging of salvage or rapid archeology with slow data. And we get into bill. Carraher's um, ideas of slow data and slow archeology same thing with Jeremy Huggett and and this is kind of a revelation. It's like we have to work really really fast to collect the data. 14:10.22 archpodnet Ah. 14:15.18 Andrew Reinhard But then we can take our time afterwards to see what people are actually doing in this limited time that they have are they following So You know different patterns. How are they interacting with the digital landscape versus a regular one. Um, you know what kind of Community building. Do they have what?? What's the nature of the architecture of the constructions when they're built under Stress. Um. And so you know there are all kinds of questions that can be asked but we we have to be really fast in getting this and and getting this information so that we can interpret it later. 14:40.11 Sara Are. 14:44.69 archpodnet Okay, well, that's pretty much the why of this I Really want to get into the how of this So I think we'll just have a little bit longer of ah of a segment too and for that we will take a break right now and come back on the other side and get into how you guys did this back in a minute. 14:49.65 Sara Who.