00:00.39 archpodnet Welcome back to the arch architect podcast is our final segment episode a one ninety eight and heather this go-round you led right into it with your last example at the end of segment 2 but I wanted to talk about some interesting scenarios. You've had working for this company in the past or maybe even currently. Where you guys had to do something that wasn't just ah you know a line drawing field map which is probably 70% or 80%. So what? a Gis department ends up doing you know location, maps and and site ah site maps. But. 00:32.10 Heather Right. 00:34.23 archpodnet You know some really cool, interesting stuff and some out of the box kind of thinking that had to happen from a Gis standpoint. 00:41.14 Heather Yeah I think just off the top of my head. The first thing that I think um of is an experience that we had when we were working with tribes and they were consulting on a project and you know there's sometimes where there's just a distrust of and for good reason. Of the data sets that we as archaeologists use on a regular basis. One of those things is in California it's called Chris which is the database for all. Um you know site records and former reports. Ah there's a lot. 01:04.75 archpodnet So. 01:14.32 Heather Of Holes in that right? Um, it's all dependent on whether or not people turn in their site records turn in their reports. Um, so there can certainly be negative Bias and um Tribes are definitely concerned with that. Um, and um, Also. You know? Okay, so you did turn in a site record or you did turn in some you know you did do an investigation you're turning your report. Um, maybe they are not all that convinced that the investigation you did was all that you know appropriate or that you came to the findings you should have. 01:44.39 archpodnet Sure. 01:49.23 Heather And so ah, that your methodology was flawed and so you know just because we have information doesn't mean that um, that's convinced all that convincing to some people and so you know the 1 thing you know is just you know helping out with this in. 01:58.64 archpodnet Oh. 02:07.79 Heather Informal. Um, it was an informal consultation that eventually helped inform the formal consultation and we ah came up I came up with an idea to look at all the sites because they were convinced this one area had to have and a site there. And I knew looking at the landscape I just just didn't make sense to me that there would be 1 there but um I knew that that but that's not enough and I don't I don't um you know, blame them for being um, critical of that and so. 02:30.82 Paul E. 02:44.71 Heather Having something where we could actually say this is data. Um not what do we know? are there sites here but looking at what like I was saying before the the um ah the predictive modeling and looking at the sites because there were quite a few sites around the area which. Many people say if you have sites surrounding an area then then you know you have a higher probability of this area that hasn't been looked at having a site. Well not necessarily because you have to look at the natural landscape right? And that's what all good archeologists do and so but being able to communicate that. 03:16.79 archpodnet Ah. 03:21.90 Heather Not just with a map but be able to communicate that with all the data and demonstrate that we've taken all these all the data and all the understanding that we have of the natural landscape into play and we've incorporated it into this analysis and come up with findings that. Were um, more believable and so that is what we did. It was a problem it almost covered an entire quadrangle um of a tolo map so it's pretty big area and so we did that We also did one. You know what's. 03:51.72 archpodnet Just. 04:01.10 Heather You know happening a lot out here right now is wildfire protection plans so you don't have the time to go and survey everywhere in a wildfire protection plan because it is literally an entire county. It can be right or an entire city. So how do you do that? How do you figure out where. 04:04.15 archpodnet Chair. 04:11.69 archpodnet Right. 04:18.17 Heather Um, you might have a potential of having um, an archeological site and so all that was you know, predictive modeling and finding areas of sensitivity and a gradation of sensitivity and um and then preparing mitigation measures that. Were appropriate for each level of sensitivity. Um, those are I Really love projects like that. That's fine. 04:39.25 archpodnet And it and just for context. Yeah for our eastern United States listeners or Europe for that matter some of the California counties are probably bigger than the state or country you live in so they're pretty huge. Yeah. 04:53.13 Heather Yes, oh definitely the largest county in the United States is in Southern California yeah and berndino yeah yes. 04:55.10 Paul The. 05:02.60 archpodnet It's San Bernardino isn't it county. Yeah so I thought yeah that county's enormous like you you can be somewhere. You didn't even think you you were near it and you just pass a sign that says entering San Berninia County you're like what I'm in the mojave. What's going on. 05:12.14 Heather Oh yeah, yes and you know that's that really brings up a good point because you know there's sometimes where you're walking into an area that you may not be all that familiar with and that's where gis can be helpful I think Gis can start you. 05:16.37 archpodnet And then you're on the other side. Yeah, it's huge. So. 05:25.89 archpodnet The. 05:32.00 Heather On the path to having good field methodology. Um, starting but Gis will really set you up to do your best work. Um in the field and especially if you're doing like we cover a huge area. 05:34.41 archpodnet I hope. 05:41.35 archpodnet Sure. 05:42.59 Paul Me. 05:47.60 Heather So I can't go and just look Yeah I'm not going to know every single area. There's no way like the back of my hand and so gis really helps with that. 05:51.67 archpodnet Yeah, yeah, nice. 05:57.66 Paul Yeah I'll agree Chris was talking about the ah the slope write-offs that we had in Nevada and and I think I'd mentioned on a previous episode about being told to dig for the foundations of a building in 1 location and then I looked at the the Lidar Hill shade 06:00.66 archpodnet Oh. 06:02.50 Heather Um, yeah. 06:14.67 Paul For that area and I could see the the thea the foundations where they actually were which is where we thought they were based off of you know, having Doug's stps all over that area. Um, and then we could verify and argue for a why we really should look for the foundations of the building here. Not where we were told to initially. 06:20.43 archpodnet Brett. 06:32.60 Heather Um, right? Yes, yep. 06:33.88 Paul Um, which would have been avoided. Had it all started in in gis. 06:40.73 archpodnet Yeah, wow, That's and that's part of you know, Obviously what we're doing here. It's not just for communication. But for just logistics I mean logistical planning right? So um, you had. 06:47.90 Paul And. 06:52.33 Heather You know another? Um, you were talking about slopes. Um, so one of the largest or the largest project I'd ever worked on which is have to say probably my one of my favorites um was something called the Santa Susanna Field Laboratory ah which is in the san Fernando Valley area right on the edge of the a county and of and and Ventura County and Southern California and it's where Nasa is on there Nasa is on there in boeing and there was a um you know. 07:19.00 archpodnet Oh. 07:23.11 Heather An accident that happened back in the sixty s and so it was a cleanup superfund cleanup site and um, you know the original archeologists that had done work in that area had only found like there's one. There's a um, ah. Ah, rock art site. That's probably 1 of the most well-known rock art sites in in the United States called rural flats or at least it's it's it's very impressive. You don't know about it look it up um and so everybody knew that that was there because people have known that for a while. It's a soulsa site. 07:50.14 archpodnet Her. 07:58.50 archpodnet Sure. 08:00.80 Heather Um, but they had only looked at the bow they had all just said. Okay, we're not going to look at slopes because there's no habitation that would happen up there and everything and so they only found like 5 look five sites in this entire six Thousand acre area project site and. After we were done. There was almost 200 sites that were there and that was because you know that you know you have all this rock art. Um, it's typically in rock shelters. Um, and so you know looking at where in the slope idea I understand the slope idea. But that's where gis can help you and you can say okay well what is out there if there is anything on the slope. What is what is out there and then looking at you know, outcrops and geological outcrops and actually looking at the landscape to see. Okay, we're not going to do the slope but let's see if there is a potential of having other types of sites out there. 08:49.45 Paul Um. 08:58.25 Heather At least in pointing those areas and looking at them. So you're not have these blinders on and miss almost 200 sites so 08:59.70 Paul Um. 09:06.80 Paul Right? So Heather let's round this out. You've given a pretty full throated argument for why gis done right? is a good thing. Can you give us just a few examples before we go about. 09:06.20 archpodnet Yeah. 09:22.62 Paul Things you'd like to see more of or things you'd like to see less of by people using Gis or not using Gis in in Cm in particular but archeology in general but just a simple little question. 09:28.45 Heather Um, you boy oh cheese. um yeah yeah um I would say not having first of all, not creating. Maps for the sake of creating maps I think that when you have a map. It's got to mean something and and other than your figure 1 figure 2 which in many cases agencies request a require excuse me but having a bunch of maps for the sake of having a bunch of maps doesn't make sense. Um. 09:48.68 Paul And. 10:05.13 Heather And then the other and it just confuses things it confuse remember the reports that we write have got to be palatable to the reader and many times those most times those are not archeologists and so you have to look at what is it. You're trying to communicate. So um. 10:16.82 Paul And. 10:25.12 Heather If you are I see this. Ah I Just say a lot but I see this. You know when you're looking through reports that other people have done to kind of gather information about your project. Um, you see people that kind of step it step into the information that they're giving with maps so they'll have. Multiple iterations of pretty much the same map where they just keep adding new information on top and that is not.. It's not helpful like if you have to me I think in some instances. Maybe it's helpful. But for the most part It's not so if you had several maps. 10:45.49 Paul Is. 11:01.20 Heather But every time you're adding some kind of a layer. What would you or or you're not adding a layer you're saying okay I'm only going to give this information on this Map. So I have a project site and I give this information on the overlaid on top of the project site and then the next one I say okay now I'm going to give you this information I'm going to take away the old. Information I'm going to put a new data set on here. Well for me what I would do is I would lay all those maps up and I would be trying to compare. Well, that's not what gis is meant for gis is meant for you to be able to ah to look at all the information at 1 time. That's why we had georeferencing why we have. The ability to actually spatially tie information. Um is not just the data. Let's say we have maps. We have historic aerials all these things that we can spatially tie so we can more accurately overlay things on ah pieces of information on top of each other. And really see where things um, you know where information pops out that make you want to look at that area more than another and so um I would say having too many maps um that it is is to me the kind of a pet peep. But just I would say. People need to kind of rethink that approach I see it a lot and I think that it might just be because a person's not Gis person so they don't see it like that and you may have let's say you have an archaeologist says you have to do it this way I mean basically they're just asking for Gis to give them a digital form of their handwritten map. 12:17.60 archpodnet Yeah. 12:36.58 Heather That's not what gis is for you know that's a lot of work for nothing just do your handwritten map. But that's what you're going to do unless your handwrit is that bad but behind those kinds of approaches is a very frustrated gis person I'm sure that' saying I could totally put this in one figure if you would just let me. 12:36.73 archpodnet Right. 12:55.29 Paul Well that gets at some of the questions that gets at some of the ideas that you were talking about earlier about symbology and Gis programs and also about communication and you know having a shared language that we can understand you don't have to necessarily. 12:55.33 Heather So. 12:55.65 archpodnet Um, yeah, you know, ah just go ahead. Paul. 13:14.74 Paul Flatten everything into each map just shows 1 kind of feature but you can smartly show them all provide. You've got you know good gis people on one side and archaeologists are willing to work with them on the other side. 13:23.30 Heather Right. 13:24.35 archpodnet Yeah, and one of the things I was thinking of Heather when you were saying you know did s is not about just digitizing hand drawn maps I mean as a small company owner when I was first starting out. Honestly I had a cursory knowledge of Gis I took 1 graduate class in gis just to kind of get my feet wet and then you know as when I became ah ah started owning my own company I couldn't afford art js so I was using quegis and which was fine and doing my own tutorials and just kind of figuring out what I needed to do. 13:49.78 Heather Anyone. 13:57.64 archpodnet I learned really early on what I did have to hand are on ah digitize, not necessarily handrawn maps but in some cases handraw maps but in in a lot of cases just you know? ah. Just making a map out of something I made in the field you know I I didn't need a complicated js tool I actually used some other stuff on my ipad to create those maps with their you know spatial relationships just to communicate the idea because that was the easiest tool for the job and I didn't use Gis to do that and you know what ended up. You know, having more projects and and getting more stuff rather than again staying in your lane rather than me trying to spend all this time and and figure this out and do a good job like I hired a contractor somebody I knew who was a gis ah specialist to do the gis work for me because you know that's going to cost me money. But it's. 14:45.12 Heather Yeah. 14:45.72 archpodnet Way less money than me trying to spend my time trying to do it. So yeah, but I was able to communicate to him because of my knowledge of what I needed and and the process you know exactly what I wanted out of his out of his work and that was a good relationship to have So yeah. 15:00.43 Heather Yeah I think um that same project that I was talking about at the time it was a smaller company and they didn't have the money for a trimble or anything like that. So we actually did the old fashioned compass and tape recording of all these sites. It was a lot and I. 15:11.90 archpodnet Sure yeah. 15:12.31 Paul Move. 15:16.99 Heather Because at the time I was actually in I was in that graduate program for Gis I thought right away I'm like you know what we need to set up a convention a symbology convention now we have to have um, a so that the symbology is across the board. The way it the way it needs to be so it's consistent. 15:26.65 Paul You live. 15:36.82 Heather So that one person isn't using this I mean that's if you look at sandborns. There's some convention there. There's some consistency. There's not and that's like usually you're trying to figure out what is what does this mean you know? um, ah and so you know I think that that is also something that Gis can do you know with companies. 15:41.56 archpodnet Oh. 15:47.44 archpodnet Depth. 15:56.56 Heather If you have a smaller company even larger companies may not have it just putting together a data dictionary putting together an actual set symbology. Um, and then that could be tied to. 16:01.58 archpodnet The. 16:03.27 Paul M. 16:09.54 Heather Technologies like collector and ah other so that when you're finding things in the field so that you're using that same symbology ah across the board. It really cuts down on time and expense um and it also once you start training people. 16:16.30 Paul Me. 16:16.49 archpodnet Right. Oh yeah. 16:26.60 Heather What to look for um, it's a it's more intuitive to them. So yeah. 16:28.57 archpodnet For sure. Yeah, indeed anything else Paul here I got to wrap up with resources. 16:29.72 Paul Um, yeah. 16:37.52 Paul And no I'm I'm good. 16:41.29 archpodnet Okay, ah so in the last just couple minutes here this podcast Heather This has been great. You mentioned to us during the break that you might have a few books for people to check out and we'll put links for these in the show notes. But um, what were you thinking. 16:50.68 Heather Um, sure so there is a few books some are just for fun and some are actually really I think good resources So there's one that's a good resource if you don't know it is a thicker book. Um, and it's many times used for textbooks. 16:56.48 archpodnet 2 17:08.23 Heather As a textbook in a Gis program. But it's called Gis Fundamentals a first text on geographic information systems by boltad. That's a really good kind of comprehensive textbook type resource. Um, and then there are a few others that kind of talk about like. The theory of of um maps and how they came to be and why we as humans we have a map in our head I mean there's no but I I'd like you to bring 1 person to me that doesn't walk around and have a map in their their cognitive map right? where they are right now. 17:35.87 archpodnet Oh. 17:46.38 Heather I Mean it's whether you think about it or not, you do have a map gone going in your head all the time. So um, what's that your bond So well, it may not be that great of a map but she has one So um. 17:49.49 Paul M. 17:49.74 archpodnet Pretty sure my mother doesn't but pretty sure my mother doesn't but go ahead right right. 17:58.44 Paul Ah. 18:03.77 Paul Ah. 18:05.83 Heather There are so there's one called you are here and that's called it's you are here as the name as's by Katherine Harmon it's called personal geographies and other maps of the imagination and then um, a fun one is maps that changed our world by ah John o e clark. And then one that's really just fun to look at the pictures as arts or then the maps as art is everything sings maps for narrative atlet for a narrative atlas by Dennis Wood and that's a fun one. You're just looking at how they communicate information. In these maps. It's pretty It's pretty cool and it gives an explanation to of why they made it the way they did each map. So yeah. 18:53.53 Paul Well, that's awesome. Um I'm going to throw this off into left field really quickly here before we wrapped up. But um, the other day I was having a conversation with my sister who's an artist and an arts educator and she gave as an assignment to 1 of her classes. 19:08.82 Paul Do a map of your childhood neighborhood and it became this incredibly intense discussion about what is a map and you know how important is the realism and the the spatial accuracy versus the effective. 19:10.18 archpodnet Nice. 19:10.26 Heather Um, yeah, yeah, he. 19:24.30 Heather Great. 19:25.82 archpodnet Um, yeah. 19:25.97 Paul Accuracy You know what? you remember what? what matters and so on and so I think that some of these books are actually going to really help her ah and she has nothing to do with archeology. 19:31.62 Heather Wo for sure. Yeah, for sure I mean you know when you're looking at maps and its size doesn't mean that that let's say you're looking at a neighborhood and you have a site you have a one house that's bigger. 19:34.42 archpodnet Nice. 19:46.70 Heather On your map then all others. It doesn't necessarily mean that that was the biggest house on the block right? that might have been your most important house right? your house or your best friend's house or you know there's so many different ways of um, communicating information. Yeah in Maps maps or so much fun. Yeah. 19:48.86 Paul Me music. 20:01.15 archpodnet Um, yeah, nice all right? Well Heather this has been great I'm glad we finally connected on this show and if you guys want to hear more of. 20:04.50 Paul Yeah, ah. 20:05.90 Heather And. 20:13.44 archpodnet You know Heather's ideas and opinions check out the crm archeology podcast here on the archeology podcast network it comes out every Sunday no we record every every Sunday I don't even know it's been ten years it comes out every Wednesday every other wednesday yes I'll get it right? Eventually, you'd think after that long I would know. But yeah, we. 20:24.46 Heather Um, wednesday. 20:31.76 archpodnet We have some great discussions over there focused solely around the job of cultural resource management and all the aspects regarding that and in fact, um, you know we've got a lot of a lot of interesting topics. But it's usually focused around cra. So check that out and again Heather Thanks for coming on the show. This has been great and ah. 20:47.29 Heather Thanks, Thanks for having me this has been really fun I don't get to talk about you know gis in this kind of way very often. So thank you, It's been fun. 20:50.71 archpodnet Yeah. 20:55.12 archpodnet Ah, yeah. 20:55.90 Paul Well, we've been trying to have you on for a while. So it's great that we finally did and it's great to finally actually kind of virtually meet you after hearing you on the CRM podcast for so long. 21:01.45 Heather Yes, and. 21:05.63 archpodnet Ah, nice, nice all right? Well thanks Heather and thanks everybody else and we'll see you guys in a couple weeks. 21:14.19 Paul Bye bye. 21:15.22 Heather Bye.