00:00.14 archpodnet Welcome back to the archeitech podcast episode 89 and we are talking about an article from the September Twenty Twenty two issue of the essay archeological record called map it the pueblo ground day village mapping project. So check that article out in the show does are or rather the entire issue because that's how it sits. So we talked a little bit about the setting behind this and now we're kind of getting into the database a little bit and I wanted to mention something they mentioned in the article about the growth and expansion potentialability ah about the growth and expansion potential of this database because if you're creating a database just ah. I guess catalog everything that's been done. You're you're kind of thinking a little shortsighted in that hey there's probably going to be future research done especially on a place like this now it could be if you're creating for a you know for a single project. You don't necessarily have to think about growth but you probably always should right? Just in case, somebody comes back to that and wants to add to it or or something like that. 00:47.98 Paul Um, is. 00:58.66 archpodnet Um, but the 5 components that they mentioned that they were really trying to fit in this geodatabase. Um and and the growth and expansion as these projects are some somewhat ongoing some of them are are a projects within the park. So. There's lots of stuff always going on within the within the the pueblo grande park. Um, the sr 1 43 project which is a highway construction project. There. The Sun America project which I don't know what that is but they just mentioned it and they don't really say what it is and then projects conducted in the late 1990 s and early two thousand s and then projects conducted since 2007 so I'm guessing there were some data standard users park during those. Spen the decades. What first couple decades mentioned the 90 s and two thousand s and then after 2000 set there's probably some other methodology that was used or standard and they're trying to fit all this into the same database. 01:37.75 Paul Is it. 01:46.75 Paul Yeah, yeah, and actually back to reference of what I was just talking about with that project that I'm helping on. We have access to the database. The the access database. In fact, um, that. 01:51.47 archpodnet Um, yeah. 02:00.20 Paul The previous data set that was handed over to the ah to the historical society was generated and and I can see by the way it's put together that initially it was done very concisely very smart that the layout of the table's relations between them makes a lot of sense to me but I can also see that it. 02:09.99 archpodnet Here or. 02:17.95 Paul Over the course of ten or fifteen years however long it was being used. It accreted all sorts of different tables for specific needs. Um, so I'm guessing that that 2007 there must have been a reset where they developed a new database maybe taking what was happening in the two Thousand Nineteen ninety s and 2000 02:28.91 archpodnet Sure. 02:37.57 Paul And refactoring it to something new Now they're doing that again and and that's another problem that we don't often talk about with databases is that you have a long life project at a certain point enough people have made their own little tweaks to it and done their own little adjustments to it that. 02:38.74 archpodnet No. 02:56.65 Paul It's gone from being a nice crystalline thing of beauty to having all sorts of funny warts and edge cases and tables that served one purpose for 1 report at some point and nobody can quite remember why and everybody's afraid to delete it and that sort of stuff so they're they're obviously dealing with that. 03:14.50 archpodnet Yeah. 03:16.43 Paul They're also ah you know and hinted at here. It's not just where the data come from because you know there there are scientific archeological projects. There are construction projects. There are yeah other early you know pre-scientific maybe archaeological projects. 03:32.34 archpodnet Um. 03:33.40 Paul Ah, that all have to be brought in here but they also have multiple constituencies right? They've got the city of Phoenix they've got visitors to the ah to the museum and the park they've got archaeologists I'm sure they have some concern for descendant communities. They may be interested in certain things that are and this isn't mentioned explicitly but certain things that are or are not. 03:35.87 archpodnet Sure. 03:46.85 archpodnet Yeah. 03:52.56 Paul Retained um you know all of this is just for me highlights How complex of a task this can be and again you know good for them for taking it on. 04:01.81 archpodnet Yeah, for sure and that's as you mentioned you know, just just the the scale of what they had to bring in here. But what gets me is how they're you know they are trying to future proof. It. But. I can't even imagine trying to feature proof something I mean from 1 standpoint you can because they they have a table in here showing their different feature data sets and feature classes that they're using and then kind of ah a sample of some feature subtypes that they have and you know to be honest. Probably not going to discover anything new at this site as far as a feature class goes right? I mean that's probably very unlikely. At this point they've been digging here forever. They've been looking at stuff forever. You're just going to find more of what you've found already and you need a place to catalog that. So from that standpoint feature proofing. It. 04:36.94 Paul Are. 04:50.56 Paul Um, breath. 04:51.15 archpodnet For for that feature proofing it for that should be relatively easy, but what gets me from a technological and just computer standpoint is future proofing it for Stuff. We don't even know exists like new techniques or something you know like. How are they cataloging you know drone aerial imagery for example and stuff like that you know specifically from drones or maybe some other devices like we've talked about other you know mapping systems and devices that might bring in different tools. We just talked about magnetomery that's not new, but something else might come down the line. That's a little more. You know, technological that again, we don't even know about yet. How do you even plan for something like that unless they've just got like like holes almost that these kings can just slot into in their in their naming convention. So um, it's It's interesting trying to think about those. Future scenarios when you don't know what the future is going to hold. 05:48.26 Paul Yeah, and also um I'm kind of curious. You've mentioned magnetomemetry in drones and you know the drone work I do is all orhomosaics which means I'm taking hundreds of photographs and processing them into one Geo Rectified image which step along that process. Do you want to? do you want to save. 05:56.85 archpodnet Right. 06:03.90 archpodnet We yeah. 06:04.20 Paul Right? Do you want each one of those hundreds of photographs that they're they're useless each one in and of itself is absolutely useless. Well not absolutely but is very is very little utility. But once they're all stitched together. That's potentially very useful, but as you said then that the database may or may not be willing to accept. Ah, you know a. A big ah raster image like that and that could be a matter of you know you have not thought about how to properly categorize and store it or it might be a matter that that Orthhomosaic is a huge file and you can't store it within the database you have to store it out on a file and you have to reference it. And so on so they're they're all sorts of of weird cases that that further complicate this sort of project. 06:47.50 archpodnet Well and and I feel like 1 thing. You just said there is a thing that archeologists kind of need to stop saying right? because we we get so focused on the products that we have of the work that we do like the author mosaic that you put together is a product of these thousands of images. But the thousands of images are just a component and who knows what products of those images could be put together later. You know what? I mean who knows what somebody could come up with a computer program or something to put those images together potentially in a different way where if all you had was the ormosaic stored in the database you might not be able to Decom. 07:19.40 Paul Um, right are. 07:24.47 archpodnet Like like deconstruct that in order to get the component parts again in the in the in the resolution that you had them in order to do something else with them. You know what? I mean so I Yeah yeah. 07:33.74 Paul Right? Well back to the example of the magnetomemetry. Um, you know the the magnetomemetry typically represented with ah with the squares that are already processed but reprocessing you know, clean up of various kinds. Um reprocessing the and. 07:50.34 archpodnet Um. 07:50.75 Paul The original dataset can yield different results. You know so oftentimes you'll be presented with magnetomemetry data. That's all ready. You know you've set. It's been stitched together. It's been cleaned up. You're given a certain histogram. Well, it turns out that if they'd been looking at a different range of of values. 07:52.50 archpodnet Yeah. 08:06.70 Paul Different features would have shown up and you don't have the ability to do that in the future unless unless you have access to that source data. So yeah, you don't want to get rid of the source data but does the source data belong in a database like this if it doesn't belong in a database like this. 08:07.49 archpodnet Sure. 08:25.45 Paul How do you not lose track of it. How do you have a reference in a database like this back to the place that you can find the original source data the original thousands of of drone photos the original transecs that you ran with the ah with the magnetometer and so on and so forth. So wow this is. 08:31.12 archpodnet Um. Red. 08:43.47 Paul Just I think about it just becomes more and more complicated but it's it's you know it's It's invicurating to me. It's it's ah it's a fun challenge. 08:50.16 archpodnet I always always think back to when we went to Chaco Canyon back in I don't know it was like 2008 or 2007 or something like that we were on a crem project and one of the things we learned going through the the museum there onsite at the park. Was some of the early some of the early people they came and started I guess started documenting chockco canyon not necessarily scientists but some of the early people that were there. They were staying of course in Chaco Canyon it's not like there was a hotel nearby or they took the train there you know they packed in and then stayed there for a while. 09:19.25 Paul And. Then pulled down the timbers for their firewood. 09:26.40 archpodnet Ban. They would naturally not only would they do that but they would put their fires in basically the same place that that prehistoric native americans put their fires as well therefore essentially ruining any carbon 14 potential from like the soot and. 09:37.30 Paul Um e. 09:40.36 Paul Um, yeah. 09:42.75 archpodnet And some of the other wood there because the contamination was just rampant but they were doing this seventy years before carbon radiocarbon dating was even invented so how could they even have known that they were destroying some sort of future data potential. You know all they're looking at at is the future is the physical structure and going. Okay, so. 09:50.83 Paul Right. 09:59.66 archpodnet You know we need wood to survive but everything else we won't touch you know so but but we're going to do this. It's just I don't even know what we're destroying now or not recording adequately for people 70 years from now to be able to use from our data. You know what I mean and and that's thought. 10:12.33 Paul E. 10:16.80 archpodnet That thought kind of keeps me up at night Sometimes when I'm on a project and I'm just like you know our job is to record everything we possibly can in in the ways that we know with the hope that somebody can do something with this later even if we can't now. Ah so. 10:25.82 Paul Um, yeah, well back to the idea that they mentioned here about future proofing their their databases that one way you do that is by doing exactly what they did here. You think about how the database is being constructed and then you document it. So. 10:33.66 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 10:40.93 archpodnet So right. 10:46.32 Paul You know in computer code you document things you put inline comments. You do whatever because not only is the next person to look at the code not going to know if you do what you're doing if you don't explain things in detail you yourself will not know what you're doing if you don't explain things in Detail. So this article. In and of itself is a little bit of of a hedging towards that future proofing I think that that's again I Keep on saying it's a good thing but it it is a good thing. 11:10.75 archpodnet Um. 11:15.46 archpodnet Yeah, one of the things I like too is they have they mentioned several times in in several different circumstances where they have incredibly detailed attribute tables where they I mean essentially they didn't they didn't cut anything out of the recorded data. They just added the attribute tables to it and you know what they're. 11:24.59 Paul Me are. 11:34.40 archpodnet What they're making the same is really the the primary naming conventions. So you can find stuff and categorize stuff. But then once you start digging in you know, certain projects may have recorded different attributes than other projects over the last hundred years so but the attribute tables are are designed to accommodate those even to the point of. 11:43.77 Paul Um, yeah. 11:51.67 archpodnet You know in in cerm projects when we submit stuff to an agency or whatever. There's There's often feature numbers and and or feature letters or designations that sit with the company that maybe those are updated and change later. Um, but sometimes you know depending on how. I Don't know how rushed the project manager is sometimes the numbers like site numbers and stuff will get changed in the report and they won't get changed on the site records like the the reference site numbers like the the site number on the on the actual site record will have the agency number but maybe another site that it references. Within that we'll have the temporary site number or something like that because it was just missed. Well they're cataloging cataloging all that as Well. They're cataloging the agency numbers numbers provided by C or M firms anything they can find. 12:27.56 Paul Easy. 12:38.20 archpodnet They're cataloging that So the data is essentially not lost when somebody goes to look at it trying to match it up with some sort of source material which I can appreciate that So all right? Well anything else to to say on this article. 12:43.22 Paul Um, yeah. 12:52.80 Paul Um, not right now though. Um, again, it's one of those articles that I like because it just sparks a whole bunch of other ideas I can't use it directly with anything I do but I like to see. 12:57.35 archpodnet Yeah. 13:03.98 Paul That other people are thinking about things in something similar to the way I approach things but also with their own special takes and those takes might be because they know something that I don't know or might be because they have different intended outcomes but but I think it's just good to to explore like we're doing here. Some things that otherwise we wouldn't normally be doing ourselves in hopes of learning how they can apply to what we do do and I said do do ah. 13:30.68 archpodnet Right indeed I didn't know if you're going to call that out or not ah Wow. Okay, so proving once again that archaeologists never grow up myself included. Um, yes, yes, all right? Well just so. 13:43.50 Paul Um, the. 13:48.39 archpodnet You know we're gonna end this podcast so you know when Paul's house but blows down at least we have the full audio for it. So you know it is made a brick but you never know you never know. It's an old building right? So indeed indeed all right? Well Paul when are we gonna when are we going to see you again because you said you're leaving like next week um 13:58.99 Paul Um, no yeah. 14:07.68 archpodnet For Er right. 14:09.31 Paul Yep I'm going to ur for about three weeks and then to lagosh after that. Um I will be because it isn't like the work I was doing in Saudi. It's an academic project I expect that I'll be able to find some time to record. 14:11.36 archpodnet Nice. 14:20.46 archpodnet Um. 14:22.86 Paul I would definitely like to do recordings like we did last year with ah with team members about the work that we're doing so yeah, ah you and I Chris are going to have to figure out exactly how we manage this, but it's not an insurmountable problem like it would have been you know. 14:24.38 archpodnet Yeah. I. 14:39.21 archpodnet Indeed. Yeah, essentially so all right? Well sounds good. Maybe we'll get to Ed Gonzalez tenant to come on again because I am going to more than likely see him in a couple weeks when I'm down in the San Antonio area because that's not that's not too far from where he's at. 14:40.52 Paul Over the summer when I was away and basically off the grid. 14:52.25 Paul Um, oh nice. Yeah, we'll say hi. 14:58.49 archpodnet So ah, yeah, absolutely absolutely so all right? Well Ah, that's it for this one check out the link in the show notes to this issue again. It's open access. You don't need to be an essay member to see it. So check that out. There's a lot of other cool stuff in there as well and a lot of good little articles in there. So. 15:10.99 Paul Um, yeah. 15:16.58 archpodnet Check out the whole thing and tell us what you think with that I think we will see you next time with either me and or somebody else we'll we'll figure it. We'll figure that out all right? Thanks a lot. 15:27.20 Paul And alright, thanks.