00:00.00 archpodnet Welcome back to the archaeot tech podcast episode one seventy two and we are talking with Cora Wolsley of archaeosoft about her project stratum a field data recording software and speaking of the field aspect of that. You've mentioned going into some. Field trials here in April how did you well to be blunt about it. How did you find guinea pigs for this software. Yeah, that was that a challenge as you get some pushback on that or were people jumping at the chance to try something new I meanleds no archeologist ever. But I'm curious. 00:23.18 Cora Woolsey Supposedly. 00:32.74 Cora Woolsey Ah, well okay I'm super lucky because um, because so some of the people who have ah been interested in this like from before it was even a project um have been really supportive. Ah they're archeologists. They're pretty big firms here in New Brunswick and Nova Scotia 00:43.39 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 00:52.52 Cora Woolsey And they have signed up so they're going to be testing this thing so they have ah so so one of those companies is boreas heritage um in Nova Scotia and they're they're a partner in the development so they they contributed some capital and they've been really supportive through this whole project. 01:00.58 archpodnet Okay. 01:10.80 Cora Woolsey And so they have a crew I'm not exactly sure how big it is but at least 10 people and probably probably sometimes at least as big as 20 so that's going to be amazing and they're one of these one of these companies that works from you know, probably January to December. So so April is when they're really going to kick off and then. Um, the other partner um slash investor archaeologist is um is colber so cbert consulting is probably the well they are the biggest archeology consulting firm here in New Brunswick and they sometimes have crews as big as 20 people as well. So so we we're going to have a good little. Um, kind of group ah giving us test data and they I mean they're just super excited to have it and I'm telling you I have wornned them I have told them there are going to be growing pains some of those growing pains may feel more like broken bones. So but they they are gung ho so that's really exciting and then. 01:52.16 archpodnet This. 02:08.37 Cora Woolsey The third the third partner that we have in this is the province of New Brunswick so so they have an archaeology branch and um, they have ah they have a crew of all first nations people indigenous people and um and. They have a contract with us to to get this thing out there and get them using it and so they're going to be. They have agreed to be our test subjects as well. So yeah, it's going to be amazing. It's also going to be really hectic. Yeah yeah. 02:35.49 archpodnet Yeah, it it sounds like it. Yeah, you know. 02:39.53 Paul That point of the ah the first nations field crew is is interesting because I was Wondering. Do you have any particular outreach in this reaching out to first nations. Indigenous. Ah, shareholders stakeholders in the archeology in your design of your software. 02:58.10 Cora Woolsey Yeah, so um, so that is a really big topic and concern at Archeosoft. So we're all extremely committed to making sure that that we we don't have ah. We don't create a software that reifiess harmful archeological practices and to me like I see that as a danger with something like this so technology can be incredibly uplifting and it can also be incredibly harmful and and lock people into into harmful. 03:24.33 Paul M. 03:36.50 Cora Woolsey You know ways of doing things. So um, so we're working right now to to get as much input from indigenous groups as we can, but this is a really slow process. Um, and I knew it would be slow. Ah, because you know for 1 thing archeology just isn't the top of most indigenous groups list. Um, and for another thing um you know like we in the software development um business. We tend to think we need to move super fast. But. 03:54.75 Paul Who. 04:09.68 Cora Woolsey Um, that timescale just isn't really practical when you're trying to negotiate get input. You know, really include people and so so we're we're definitely finding it challenging but we we remain really committed to it because it has to happen. Um I. 04:25.98 archpodnet Yeah. 04:28.58 Cora Woolsey I'm not sure what it's like where you are but in Canada this is ah like a huge priority is is trying to bring indigenous voices into various industries and and we've been trying to bring indigenous voices into archeology for a while with. Limited success I would say so we do have you know a lot of indigenous archaeologists now. But but you know oftentimes they end up as professors so they don't really have an impact on sort of the industrial side of archeology. Um, we have this crew that that operates in New Brunswick that is. 04:46.38 Paul No. 05:05.80 Cora Woolsey First nations. Um, which is really. It's really great I worked with them and it was it was quite an experience very different from the archeology I'm used to but the issue there is that like ah like they had hoped that these these um certain these groups would. Would create kind of an environment for indigenous people to kind of start. Ah as texts and gradually build themselves into you know archaeologists that could be permitted but um, but what's really happened is that they have stayed labor and they never have really moved on to the university setting. Because of a lot of barriers and so so have they actually brought in indigenous voices. It's debatable. Um, so we we've certainly brought in a lot of indigenous voices that have been pissed off that they have to work such long hours like that's for sure. But. 05:44.78 Paul Moving. 06:03.14 Cora Woolsey Like we need people who are changing policy and creating methodologies that um that we can Follow. So um, so trying to bring those voices in we think we can do with this software. Um. If we can create these partnerships and that's really the crux of it. So That's that's what we're working on right now and it is going slow. 06:28.80 Paul Well, that's what everybody says that's trying to you know to improve our field is that those partnerships are the hardest thing to build So I but I'm glad that you're baking that into the into the product and into the company I have a sort of related question. Um, which is that Archosoft is a female led company. 06:34.12 Cora Woolsey The first. 06:34.85 archpodnet Yeah. 06:39.27 Cora Woolsey Well, thanks. 06:45.89 Cora Woolsey And. 06:47.83 Paul And you know if you look at our back catalog on Archeotech here almost all of our guests have been male. Um, even though I know that there are a lot of of women and non-binary people who are doing very good work in things that we're interested in on this podcast um has. Being a female led company Pose Any particular challenges. Do you feel overlooked dismissed in any way has it been problematic or has it not been an issue. 07:15.50 Cora Woolsey No, we have not been overlooked but let's not forget. Let's not forget. We're at the beginning. So um, no I would say that at the stage we're at being a woman led company is. 07:20.90 archpodnet Good. Yeah. 07:24.62 Paul Keeping. 07:31.30 Cora Woolsey Highly beneficial like we look good to all of the programs that are trying to promote um diversity and you know it's great I I Really appreciate that those programs exist but we haven't yet encountered um, kind of the next phase. Where we're trying to. We're trying to get people to implement this technology and I don't know to be perfectly. Honest I don't know if it's going to um, be important to people or not I have certainly found in Archeology. There have been times when being a woman. Was advantageous and there were times when it was definitely not and so um I don't know in some ways. Um where we're at right now where where I'm at having. 08:13.00 Paul And then. 08:24.95 Cora Woolsey Made space in my life to create. This is very much the result of having been shut out of certain places and probably not just because I'm a woman probably also because I have a guide of abrasive personality. But Nevertheless. Um so where where this software is right Now. Um. Probably could not have happened without my being a woman and without my having so had some of those experiences that came from being a woman in Archeology. So I Know that's a really complicated answer to what you asked it is it really is um, sexism is not. 08:56.69 archpodnet The complicated topic. So yeah. 08:57.31 Paul But yeah. 09:03.73 Cora Woolsey Um, it's not. It's not like second wave sexism anymore like you can't just qualify it the way you used to be able to. There's a lot of dynamics at play and um, yeah I mean that that could be a podcast all in its own I'm sure you're aware. 09:06.11 archpodnet Yeah. 09:17.99 archpodnet Yeah, for sure for sure. 09:18.20 Paul Oh Absolutely And like I said even where you know we We Certainly don't select on this podcast for you know cishet mails to be on the guest here. But the the preponderance of people who've wanted to be here. With us have been and and so that is something that always just kind of itches in the back of my brain that that what are we doing wrong about this. How is our outreach not aligned with the world that we work in because we both work with ah. 09:43.75 archpodnet Yeah. 09:54.33 Paul With very competent, very strong, very intelligent women. Um and is not reflected here as much as it should be Um, So yeah, so I'm glad to hear that in your case, It's been for the most part a positive though I suspect that there's a lot to unpack in that the. Prior experiences in the field and how that helped get you to where you are. 10:13.80 archpodnet Yeah. 10:14.40 Cora Woolsey Well, you know?? Yeah I think I think it's really interesting that that um, that you've had mostly male, um or um, ah, male hosts or sorry guests on your show. Um I think it is possible. That um, that women often feel like they will be vulnerable if they if they have too much to say I mean I think that they they tend to have a lot to say but if they say it publicly like I remember um I I remember when I was still a Ph D student and like the site I was working on was a little bit sensitive. 10:37.62 Paul Inhi. 10:51.85 Cora Woolsey And I was giving a talk on I was really excited to give a talk and they they had asked me if I would do some radio interviews ahead of time to promote it and I wouldn't I just couldn't do it I was I was very afraid to do that because um, because I was afraid that I would um say the wrong thing. And and I I think that ah women more than men. Maybe maybe fear that maybe fear saying the wrong thing in ah, a in a public forum. Um, and I I think that might be something that maybe it is in other things but in archeology I Think that's ah, that's a real thing that happens but with women. 11:16.95 Paul And. 11:29.17 Cora Woolsey Because they can get so attacked for the things that they say that's been my experience anyway. 11:33.10 archpodnet Um, yeah and I feel like it I feel like that is almost directly tied to the other problem I can see because when Paul was saying that you know we've had mostly men I actually hadn't really thought about that too much to be honest and which is my fault I really should think about that a lot. But then when I think about how do we find our guests typically I'm I'm seeing news articles or you know papers in a journal and and some headline or something like that you know strikes my interest and then I start reading the article I don't even look who the author is until I'm interested in what I'm reading and then and then I find that and it seems like. I don't know just based on the people we've had on here that 9 times out of 10. It seems like it's ah, a male author that has done that and that's that's why we're contacting that person because we we rarely get contacted by people that find us and say oh yeah, can I come on your podcast just because. Well scientists in general aren't that forward with they're doing that kind of thing which is another problem in and in and of itself. So we're usually reaching out and saying you know which is why I appreciate you reaching out back to me and saying hey I'm ready to talk about this now. Let's ah, let's do an interview that was fantastic and I love that that you know forward. I guess looking and and wanting to do this so anyway. Yeah. 12:50.20 Cora Woolsey Well I I Really appreciate that you that you let me come on your show. Um, ah and I think I mean I think that's really interesting I think you're right that? um that like a lot of times when we're ah looking for. 12:55.10 archpodnet Um, yeah, yeah. 13:07.90 Cora Woolsey For the experts and the people who can talk about a specific thing. Yeah often they are males and I think that I think the the reason ah is this is gonna maybe sound weird to some people but I think the reason is that um that worry. About talking and saying the wrong thing starts starts on like ah at a project level on ah like a site level and just the dialogue that you have with the people who are there and you know how how relationships kind of play out and then and that's why you don't end up seeing women kind of um. 13:31.50 archpodnet Sure sure. 13:46.47 Cora Woolsey Um, calling themselves experts in various things and just just as a point of context. Um during the course of developing this all 3 of the women who had um, started archeotech experienced massive massive problems with male colleagues. 13:48.59 archpodnet Right. 14:05.71 Cora Woolsey And um, this is just we just we were just like yep this is just how it is and we just had to support each other and so right from the beginning in Archeosoft we knew we had to kind of bake into it. Um, ah how to deal with that kind of thing and that like you know. 14:10.60 archpodnet M. 14:23.30 Cora Woolsey Harassment You know inappropriate stuff is just not tolerated. So yeah, it's been interesting. 14:27.39 archpodnet Well I I feel like I should announce a conflict of interest here for me but I also feel like I need to put you guys together because you know I've been consulting for the last like five years with a company called wildnote and they did not start out in the archeology space. They started out. 14:33.50 Cora Woolsey Ah. 14:45.49 archpodnet More in the biology phase space. In fact, none of the people that work there except for me as a consultant and my wife works for customer service are archaeologists like everybody else is either developers or you know they work in some other space and I interviewed the founder there. Her name is Kristen and it's it's. Mostly a women-led company. There's a few male employees but it's almost all women and they're in San Los obisspo California and they've been like I said in business for I don't know probably 6 years now five or six years give or take and they're still you know on the road and and still doing things but I feel like I should just put you guys together because you have such. 15:20.29 Cora Woolsey 3 15:23.27 archpodnet You you have similar I guess outlooks and similar progressions and things like that and maybe just you know talking to Kristen about being ah a Ceo a founder of a tech company and and software and all that stuff. Yeah, yeah. 15:35.28 Cora Woolsey I Would love that. Yeah I would love that I've been hearing about wild nose I haven't actually used it myself I've been hearing about it and I mean people have such great things to say about it. So um, yeah, we don't actually see ourselves as a competitor. Um, yeah, we so. 15:42.46 archpodnet Um, yeah. Um, yeah I Think in some you're you're right? And that's why I was hesitant to almost say that because in some aspects you're you're doing similar things. You're targeting similar audience but in other aspects you're doing it in a different Way. So it. It comes down to. Something I've always said because I worked for another competitor before wild note and helped them develop out some stuff and I'm like it. It doesn't hurt this space to have more options because different areas around the world around even our own countries are going to want to do things a little bit differently and have some ah have some. You know, different creative ways of wanting to do stuffph and to be honest competition just makes better projects products so that is that is common in every industry the more players you have the more those players step up their game and just make a better product for the end-us So I'm I'm all for I'm all for It. You know having having more players in the space because it just makes the field better. 16:27.67 Cora Woolsey Right. 16:43.33 archpodnet And makes our data recording better in the long run. So yeah, all right? Well I think that's about all the time we have in this podcast I would love to have you back when you're ready to talk about and and you've you've recovered. You're in therapy from your first field session. 16:43.42 Cora Woolsey Um, I mean I agree I agree with you? yeah. 16:59.24 Cora Woolsey I. 17:01.93 archpodnet Ah, because because I mean that's gonna be stressful if whether it's a success or not to be honest, so yeah and and it's gonna be awesome. Either way I mean there's definitely gonna be things. 17:02.81 Paul Ah. 17:09.29 Cora Woolsey Ah, yep, yep, but. 17:18.23 archpodnet I mean the reason you do this is to find you know holes and deficiencies and things you can plug and places where you can. You can you can make it better so you know just listening to the feedback and iterating and and moving on from there is the name of the game and and something that's expected. So it's going to be positive either way so looking forward to. Having you back when you're ready to talk about how that first experience went even if it's in the fall wait for the whole season. Whatever it is but we'd love to have some some regular updates from Archeosoft on the archeotech podcast. 17:45.17 Cora Woolsey Ah, Wicked I would love to come back. This has been super fun. 17:49.68 archpodnet Yeah. 17:50.32 Paul Well, it's been great having you This is again I Love saying it when I when we have a good guest that I learned a lot and and it was really interesting to hear how youre you're attacking these sets of problems and I wish you a lot of good luck with this upcoming season. 17:57.50 Cora Woolsey Um. 17:59.50 archpodnet Yep. 18:05.39 Cora Woolsey Thank you. 18:06.92 archpodnet All right? and with that we will end this podcast again. Go check out the links in the show notes to the website that we have for stratum and Archeosoft and see what you think and and look forward to more updates in the future. Thank you Cora for coming on the show. 18:20.46 Cora Woolsey Thank you. 18:24.95 archpodnet All right.