00:00.00 Paul Hi welcome back to the arch architect podcast episode one seventy two today we're talking to Cora Woolsey about her company Archeosoft and her product her software stratum and corera as you were explaining what the the problems you were trying to solve with this with this software it dawned on me I wasn't. Entirely clear. Maybe you could explain this for me and our listeners. Um, who is intended to use the software is it's going to be something that you want in the hands of every field tech is it the hands supposed to be in the hands of project managers. Um, how is this supposed to be used actually in the field. 00:34.69 Cora Woolsey Ah, yeah, That's a awesome Question. So I mean originally I I Thought oh this will be something everybody can use and you know we'll design it for every user in mind. Um, so doing that Customer Discovery that I had done so like talking to to people about. About what they needed I quickly realized there was a difference between field text and project managers for instance and that they were going to need really different things so I actually would like to have versions that that are you know I'd like to have a version for everybody. 01:03.48 Paul And. 01:12.21 Cora Woolsey But um, but this is really geared towards project managers and people who are I guess in like supervising projects. So so not just project managers but people people who can who are authorized to take the notes and authorized to um, kind of change notes that someone else has taken. 01:20.23 Paul Listen. 01:30.80 archpodnet M. 01:32.60 Cora Woolsey That kind of thing but I wanted to just mention that um 1 thing that that customer discovery revealed was that um field texts are a dramatically underutilized source of note taking. So um, now there's a reason why we don't always give. 01:44.90 archpodnet Yeah. 01:50.76 Cora Woolsey Field text the chance to take notes. We need specific information and you know like we we have all these restrictions on um, like we need to take good, really good notes that that are scientifically valid and so on and so if we kind of just give it to somebody who doesn't necessarily have that basis yet. Um, you know that's that's just not doing the best archeology. So um, but field texts can take notes they can. They can be given tasks to kind of you know, write down and you know keep track of um without having to take all the notes. So um. So 1 thing that I was really hoping to do so so a big part of this software is that you have a project that you you know you create or whatever others can link to your project so you have like your you know your your project manager and then your supervisors and they can all they all have access. They're all taking their own data on. Whatever, um, and then you can have this is my vision for it anyway, it's not developed yet. But um, you can have field texts that can also link to projects and you can select what what kinds of data they can take so for instance, if if you want them to um you know record. Ah. Levels depths. Ah but you don't necessarily want them describing the stratiy itself. Well you know that's like that's a ah task that you take off your own roster. So um, so that kind of thing can dramatically reduce the amount of work that supervisors have to do. And 1 thing that I I mean I've seen this myself and I talk to people who um experience this kind of all the time is that you often have one person who's supposed to take notes for a whole site and you'll have your your crew just kind of sitting around waiting for you to finish up sometimes and that's not cool like. 03:37.57 Paul This is is beautiful. 03:43.48 Cora Woolsey You know I mean those field texts can be helping you with that process. You know like something like depths is labor intensive like if you take depths on you know a hundred test pits in a day. Um, that's that's pretty labor intensive. So if you can hand that off to somebody who can. 03:48.17 archpodnet Yeah. 03:54.88 Paul Yeah. 04:01.30 Cora Woolsey At the same time be learning as they're using the software I mean that's a win-win. 04:04.80 archpodnet Nice. 04:05.27 Paul Yeah, No absolutely it certainly agree with that that if we're using these tools to be more efficient in the field and to be better recorders of this inherently destructive process. It makes sense to you know to to meet out tasks to the various individuals. In ah in the most efficient manner so you can get that data recorded as properly and as intensely as as as adequate as you can. Um I have a so follow-up question Maybe I don't know if you've tackled this yet. But especially if you start handing out you know. Reduced task sets on your tablets that go to the field text you then have ah an issue of of syncing all that data together have you started to attack the problem of syncing data into a common database. 04:51.97 Cora Woolsey Well I mean only conceptually so like I mean there is a ah database that everyone works on. Um and the I mean like that 1 is really a development problem and. 04:58.29 Paul And. 05:07.39 Cora Woolsey Um, and and and trying to just work out the logistics and and make the data go in the right place and that's not really my specialty. My specialty is designing the database and you know figuring out what like what needs to be automated and stuff so um, so but yeah, that's like. That has to happen like you can't have and this is another problem with things like collector 1 2 3 or sorry collector and survey one 2 3 is that you often find these syncing problems. So absolutely that needs to be fixed. Um, if we can't fix it then we should just scrap our software because that's the whole point. Is to sync that stuff. So yeah, it may come to that we'll see. 05:44.80 archpodnet Um, yeah, yeah. 05:48.97 Paul Well, you actually um, raise another issue there too. Um that you're doing one part of the development who all do you have involved in this and what kinds of how are the tasks broken up between you know Frontend Development Database development. Overall product strategy and so on. 06:06.59 Cora Woolsey Well, um I have an amazing team so I was very lucky to find a developer who um, who who's just really great at problem solving so his name is Jeff Mundy and he's also at the University Of New Brunswick and um and he ah. His specialty his specialty is gaming and and basically gaming everything so he's done a whole bunch of things like ah like creating. So um, kind of scenarios that are that are basically games. But so people can train within those scenarios so he created one for. 06:30.27 archpodnet Um. 06:39.98 Paul And. 06:41.84 archpodnet Nice. 06:43.88 Cora Woolsey For nurses I think who are in training. Um and so he like his whole thing is these you know 3 d worlds virtual reality. All the stuff. Um, and so this has really stretched him because he's had to. He's had to look at databases which is a whole. World I did not realize this but databases is and like in the digital like not not just in the data collection world but in the designing them like it's a whole thing and there are people who specialize um in databases so he had to he had to work very hard to get up on that and then. Mapping like that's as you know that's that's ah there are a lot of specializations within mapping so trying to get up on that I think was a challenge for him and his team and and then all this other stuff where we had to. We had to really sort through like I have this idea. About how the data should be collected and I I made a prototype in filemaker pro to kind of show how that was supposed to happen. But um, it turns out that doesn't translate super easily to the world of development. Um. So so having to kind of figure out all that has been has been a real challenge for Jeff but he's he's incredibly versatile and he's really good at he teaches at u and b so he's able to kind of snag promising students and bring them in and um and so he's he's been able to. Bring in the kind of expertise that we need to to make it happen but not going to lie. Um, there were some hiccups so so just getting the mapping up and running took took a while. Yeah yeah. 08:24.81 archpodnet I can imagine. Yeah you know speaking of some of the other things you guys are doing in the first segment you mentioned wanting to have and I think terminology is a little different up there but we'll we'll just talk about this but you mentioned wanting to have like. 08:38.78 Cora Woolsey Sure. 08:42.96 archpodnet Ah, you know export reports basically of some sort like you know? yeah you have artifact tables you want to be able to just produce that in ah in a usable format in my experience with working with different clients that have different expectations when you try to make ah, you know you try to dictate and say okay when you collect this. We're going to export it this way. It seems like 9 times out of 10 each client is going to be like yeah but I want this one little thing to be different. So I'm wondering I'm wondering how you're handling that is are you coding exports for clients. Are you saying this is how we export and you know when you buy this product. This is what you get which is there's nothing wrong with that. 09:06.44 Cora Woolsey Yeah, yeah. 09:19.64 archpodnet Because it it'd be nice if everybody came to some kind of a standard or are you do you have some sort of engine where they can sort of build their own export. What's what's your handling of that situation. 09:27.48 Cora Woolsey Yeah I mean again, great Question. So I mean you need to give the the users the options that are that are going to allow them to use it the way they're going to need to use it. So so we want to make these reports. But we also recognize we need to give them the ability to export to a number of Formats. So like you know all of these tables. Um, that we're going to be using need to be exportable as as excel spreadsheets like that's just that's not negotiable. 09:45.86 archpodnet M. 09:57.56 archpodnet Right. 10:00.79 Cora Woolsey And then you know if people are are doing mapping. They need to have the ability to get that into some kind of Gis program. So um, so yeah and it it turns out that that's actually not as easy as I thought it was to sort of turn these things into into these different file formats. But you know I mean. And this is one of the things I really like about um my team that I have is that like they tell me these things they say okay, exporting exporting things is not that easy and um and can you live without it and you know and I will say well I'll tell you what I can live without. When it comes up but this one is one I can't live without and so then then they will just kind of work on trying to make it happen sore. They've been really good about understanding that I I know what I want and I'm not gonna budge on it and then um and then I but I will budge where where we can. So. 10:55.31 archpodnet No. 10:57.90 Cora Woolsey Yeah, it's like a good negotiation there I guess but but absolutely like the um the the ability for users to to use this data the way they need to That's non-negotiable. 11:09.83 archpodnet Okay, nice Paul. 11:10.56 Paul Ah I'm actually kind of curious about your process then in ah in terms of the software development because you know we've all been involved in software development. All 3 of us. Um and having that that pick list of you know these are features that are non-negotiable. These are things that I'd like to have. How you roll them out how you decide which ones are more important or more critically need to be done now than other ones. Ah what's your roadmap look like. 11:40.53 Cora Woolsey Oh man, it is all over the place. Um, so let's see how best to answer that. Ah, ah, yeah, well. 11:46.94 Paul And I don't mean the specifics of like you don't have to go into all the the planned features I mean more. How do you develop that roadmap and how do you? How do you work through that with your team. 12:00.36 Cora Woolsey I mean let me just start by saying that um that I'm not an easy person to work with all the time. So I have I have a pretty strong personality and Jeff has been just wonderful about kind of just accommodating that right from the beginning. Um, but so I guess. Basically what our process is is I build a prototype and they look at the prototype. They're responsible for looking at the prototype and reproducing it and um, a lot of times I I realize they're not actually doing that they've decided to go in another direction and um. I'm taking a different approach with it than I have in the past where I've just I've just been waiting to see what happens I mean maybe they come up with stuff that's better than what I came up with and sometimes that has definitely been the case and sometimes it hasn't so um, so for instance, after this interview I have to go and have like and basically an all nighter. Where we figure out some of these tables that they left till the very end because they didn't think they were important. So so that like that kind of thing I mean they've had tremendous patience with me and I try to make sure I always have patience with them and what they're talking about and what their issues are with what's going on and. Um, we just talk a lot so we show each other stuff a lot and you know they they tell me about what their world is like and I tell them. But what the archeology world is like so yeah. 13:27.30 archpodnet Yeah I think one of the first times I went down the road of like official software development. Not just some offhand form building using a form building application which that was my first foray into things but when I went into real software development. We had an indian. Software development company and I was basically up at one two o'clock in the morning many nights out of many many days teaching them archaeology so they could understand what we're trying to do and I did the same thing you were doing I would put together prototypes using this I found an app that allowed me to like mock up screens and and different. 13:51.88 Cora Woolsey Ah. 13:52.95 Paul And. 14:04.94 archpodnet Flows in things in ways I wanted to see them which was pretty cool and we basically try to translate that you know they're working on database stuff. So I totally understand where you're coming from here. This is ah ah speaking you know, giving me ptsd on on that little project. But um, I'm wondering in the last few minutes of this segment Where do you think you guys are in your development cycle I know you're using this in the field I mean like like real data collection coming up here shortly in the summertime but where where are you in your development process. Would you say like if version one was. We're selling this to people and they're using it out in the field you know, would you say you're a. point Five point six point four I'm curious to see where you think you are in that. 14:43.86 Cora Woolsey Yeah, ah, okay so I'm terrible with tech release ah of terminology. So I'm going to steer clear that. But um I yeah I Okay so here's where we are Um, we we have developed a prototype but the prototype is. 14:53.65 archpodnet Um, yeah. 15:03.16 Cora Woolsey Kind of and work of ah ongoing work of art. Let's just say ah yeah, and um, and so we are about to finish our quote unquote field ready version. So that means that means that somebody could conceivably put it on a tablet and take it into the field and. 15:05.10 archpodnet Yeah, as Prototypes are yeah, ah. 15:05.27 Paul The. 15:14.80 archpodnet Me. 15:23.13 Cora Woolsey Conceivably collect data. Um, would I say it's actually ready. No I would not but um, but we're going to take the next little while to really tighten it up in preparation for the field season starting in April and so so at that point. 15:35.10 archpodnet Are. 15:39.50 Cora Woolsey Um, real archeologists are going to take this thing and collect real data and they're going to expect real. You know results and um and I'm I'm really afraid of this just just you know full disclosure I'm ah I'm dreading this. So. 15:46.50 archpodnet Ah, nice and. 15:56.68 Cora Woolsey Um, because oh my gosh. The last thing I want to do is Impact. Anyone's project with my terrible software. Ah, it's not going to be terrible though. It's going to be great. So um, so so they take it out in the field. Um, they get heavily supported because it's definitely going to have issues. And we we update it kind of in real time because you know we have to offer that kind of support um to archaeologists because it's just you can't You can't just not collect the data and um, after this so this this should last this this field testing should last for four months I'm going to say. 16:16.13 Paul Listen. 16:34.36 Cora Woolsey And at the end of it. We're going to have a ton of data. We're going to analyze it and we're going to change what we need to change and update it get a really amazing graphic designer to come in and and fancy it up and then we're onto the commercial version. So we. 16:49.44 archpodnet Nice. 16:51.93 Cora Woolsey Are ready to have early adopters. Um, as early I'm going to say as early as July um, but that's going to be a little bit inconvenient for a lot of people because they're going to want it from the beginning of their field season. But we may be looking for early adopters. But then that commercial version we're expecting will be ready for the field season in 2023. So yeah. 17:13.61 archpodnet Okay, well we're going to close out this segment but I'll just tell you 1 thing that I heard time and time again when I had an office in Reno Nevada in a coworking facility most of the people there I was like the only archeologist as they would expect but most of the people there were. You know, remote working software developers are working on their own projects in in various ways and there was always a mantra that said if you wait until your version 1 is ready to release it then you waited too long so because it's never ready so all right. 17:41.77 Cora Woolsey Got she know what I just got this lecture from my developer today. Yeah, he seems to know what he's talking about. 17:52.20 Paul Awesome! So I'm god. 17:52.37 archpodnet Yeah, then he's experienced. That's right, that's right, all right? Well on that note, let's take a break and we'll come back and wrap up this discussion about Archeosoft and stratum with Cora Wolsley back in a minute.