00:00.00 ALEX And we are back with archeo animals and this episode we're looking at the zoareology of the Americas so North and South America and in this segment we'll be going from the wild species to the domesticists are normally found in this region. And unfortunately that means we are going to have to talk about the llamas and the alpacas which is a bit confusing sometimes. 00:26.83 S_ Granarius I mean for anyone who's interested though. We do have like early on in our catalog we do have an episode that's entirely devoted to South American Caableids 00:36.80 ALEX But I don't remember if we actually really got into kind of I think we talked a bit about how they're different but I don't know if we got into like the nitty-gritty about the domestication. 00:48.23 S_ Granarius Ah, what the they were probably domesticated in several locations are several different points in time. So but and this is the good news that we are moving because while we are covering both North and south america ah it has been so far. Hu. 00:53.56 ALEX Oh they were probably anyway. Well. 01:06.59 S_ Granarius North American oriented with the exception of the jaguar so with a few species we're we're starting to slowly move south. 01:13.33 ALEX Yeah, so we'll start with the lma also known as Lamagrama which is just a delightful latin name. So lamas are as we've kind of just said south american domesticated cameidds they were used for. 01:16.81 S_ Granarius Well Blama glamour. 01:32.85 ALEX Meats and for their wool as well as a pack animal across many different cultures and civilizations and are still used like that today to be completely honest and but ah believe that they were very vital to a lot of. Meso American and pre-columbian trade routes because of their ability to be beast suburban and pack animals so they are extremely important to the development of a lot of these civilizations in South America and they were likely domesticated from a wild species of camelit known as the gunaco. 02:16.25 S_ Granarius We Lama Guanico 02:18.67 ALEX Yes, which occurred probably around six thousand five hundred years ago so like six thousand seven thousand years ago give or take and like I said they were used by the inca as beast of burden. And obviously that meant that llama herding was actually very common among the incan people and very very important to their everyday life and given this importance. It's probably not surprising that llama remains have been found in many human burials. So. You know as kind of grave goods buried alongside humans. It kind of varies because it's not just in the incan empire but also in many pre incan civilizations as well such as the moche where llamas were likely offerings to the dead. And thus buried with them. 03:15.37 S_ Granarius And and similar but different on the Lama is the alpaca so Lama Pacos um which they're often confused with lamas because well they do kind of look alike but they're smaller. Um, and actually I believe their wool is a little bit sort of. 03:35.10 ALEX Yeah. 03:35.29 S_ Granarius Fine or softer so actually slight digression I believe the 2 are and more more than likely were in the past often hybridized so you could get the size of a lama but the wall quality of an alpaca. 03:49.93 ALEX But did they have a cute hybrid name. 03:54.22 S_ Granarius From Lalpaca was that. 04:00.32 ALEX Alama. 04:01.32 S_ Granarius Ah, the puns are endless. Um, but dear alpacas as you may have suspected um are also south american domesticated camelis but they are likely domesticated from the vicua so Vicua vicua which is also another type of wild camelet. 04:19.48 ALEX Yeah, so basically you have two wild camelids you have the vacua and you have the guico and then they were domesticated again roughly around the same time out both Alpaca and L Lamas were both. 04:21.18 S_ Granarius Of. 04:38.84 ALEX Domesticated probably around sixty five hundred years ago and of course they create 2 other domesticated camwids that are are different from each other I believe the vacunya is also similar to how the alpaca is smaller than the lma. The vacuna is smaller than the. Guanico. 04:58.17 S_ Granarius And again much like the Lama like unsurprisingly um alpacas ah were important for their wool. Um, but also just as symbolically and ritually important to pre-columbian culture such as damas. So an example of this has been found at the um chiri baya culture site of El Yaal where they found naturally moified alpaca and lamas buried in the house foundations. So likely you know protect the sacrifices at some point. 05:33.31 ALEX But yeah I was just going to say like it's really interesting that that seems to be because I mean you know I'm always worried about doing kind of crossculural you know comparisons because obviously. 05:34.92 S_ Granarius Has a trend that you see pretty much all over. Um. 05:51.50 ALEX A lot of people who do do that have very problematic beliefs in say ancient aliens and things like that. But it is yeah I mean it's ah to to kind of go in a bit of a tangent. Um. 05:58.35 S_ Granarius Ah, no, no, no, no, no, no. 06:07.50 ALEX Really got to experience this when I went to american stonehenge which I don't know if you know about american stonehenge it's in or is ah ah, new hampshire I think it's it's on the East Coast and it's it's referred to as american stonehenge and a lot of the kind of. 06:10.81 S_ Granarius Or that do do I Want to. 06:27.29 ALEX Evidence is that there's oh there's phoenician carvings and it's so similar to Stonehenge in Britain that it has to have been made by the same people now I do want to say that as ah, an actual archeologist who went to American Stonehenge it absolutely looks like. Eighteenth century shelters built by with rocks like you know how you find in places like in Europe like you know like a shelter you'd make for like livestock kind of that's that's what it looked like but you know american stonehenge. Whatever. 07:01.28 S_ Granarius Right? yeah. 07:06.67 ALEX And so it was just very funny to like see all the comparative stuff of like oh it's just like this place here. So I'm very worried about doing that. But I do. 07:15.87 S_ Granarius Yeah, so because it is it is impossible to fathom that different cultures can come up with similar Concepts completely independently of each other. 07:23.44 ALEX Oh no, absolutely not but like that that is the the actual good and fun part of that isn't it is kind of being like. 07:30.26 S_ Granarius Yeah, because I think a thing more the way I see it is just like it's the human mind. 07:35.74 ALEX Yeah, where it's um, it's It's just it's interesting because I mean I assume this is what you were going to bring up originally but you know we we and I think we have talked about Foundation Null deposits before right. 07:51.16 S_ Granarius Yeah, course course they they're common across many cultures. But then again you know the evidence that we find might be similar but the motives may be wildly different and some of them will never know about. So it's interesting to see like you know the human mind sort of like this sort of. 08:03.00 ALEX For sure. Yeah. 08:11.30 S_ Granarius Ah, having similar concepts. But of course they're also different. 08:14.96 ALEX Yeah, like especially reading about the fact that they were naturally mummified alpaca llamas that were buried underneath the house foundations and obviously speaking as someone who's done a lot of prehistoric british and Scottish Archeology we find loads of. Kind of these house station deposits up in the Orkneys we have lots of kind of pictish buildings where if we we pulled up the flooring and you could find like a whole cow. You know, like all these kind of animals that were placed underneath the the foundations. But the fact that they mentioned that these alpaca and llamas were mummified immediately made me think of there's a site in Scotland called Cladhaa I think it's c clouddhaa. That's the one I'm I'm talking about I a lot of these were in my ph d live review so kind of wal mush into one. But. They had kind of a similar thing where there were ah kind of these foundational deposits but and they were human remains they were mummified or preserved in some way I think the original theory was that they might have been placed in the Bog and then rebury not reburied. But. Ah, excavated back out and then placed underneath the foundation but they were also it was like a body that was kind of made out of different individuals. It was very interesting but it's kind of interesting. 09:41.21 S_ Granarius The but the motivations like oh ah, wish to we had a so some time travel just say just why? Um, um, good say but like is there a mention so like on at a yetal like do we know sort of whether the. 09:50.43 ALEX Very cool. 10:00.22 S_ Granarius Mummification was intentional and then placed or is this something with a toughennot with a taonnomy sort of with the particular environment because I know parts of South America know they lend themselves better to natural momification than say britain. 10:12.80 ALEX Yeah I mean you see a lot of Pre-columbian Mummies. Don't you and I I believe that it is specifically naturally mummified in that it doesn't seem like there's any human motivation towards it but the problem is obviously you know you could easily argue. Oh they could have somehow died. Underneath the house Foundation. You know I mean so it's a bit I don't know um I'm not sure if there were any other I Assume there must be other kind of artifactual associated with the site to kind of help with that interpretation but still very interesting and it was just something I kind of wanted to to note. 10:44.25 S_ Granarius Even. 10:51.36 ALEX Because you know we we talk about domestication Sometimes we don't talk about the crossover between domestication and ritual although that's a lie. We talk about it all the time. Don't we true. 10:58.63 S_ Granarius Yeah, just this father Bingo If we mentioned the Romans if we mentioned ritual and but here's one. That's definitely not part of a bingo because I don't think we ever mentioned the species before it's a domestic turkey. 11:15.28 ALEX Take a shot of that that word. Oh why do I Ever doubt you? But yeah I think we may have briefly talked about the turk you when we did our episode on holiday meals. Maybe. 11:20.61 S_ Granarius Meagrisca Lo Pavodo domesticos. 11:28.45 S_ Granarius Oh yes, now we would have done. Yeah, but it's something again because we tend to sort of be fairly British Centric The turkey is something that doesn't come up until sort of the post medieval period here. 11:41.86 ALEX Yeah, and I definitely don't think we've talked about the domestication of the turkey which obviously was domesticated from the wild turkey of Mexico of course. 11:52.42 S_ Granarius Meag Grisca Lo Pavo Gal Lo pavo. 11:56.80 ALEX And of course the turkey would eventually make its way to Europe via the spanish colonizers who would ship them back as well as spread throughout the Americas because obviously turkey is just pretty much everywhere now similar to the chicken. But yeah. 12:06.94 S_ Granarius Did do you think they were part of someone's foul collection. 12:12.75 ALEX Oh absolutely. 12:16.45 S_ Granarius Um, yeah, so although the main domestication event was slightly in mesomerica around two thousand years ago there may have been a second domestication event at some point so approximately a thousand years ago in what is now the the southwest the United States 12:33.67 ALEX Yeah, so again, that's probably indicative of how it really spread around the Americas and of course because we are you know England Centric we do need to give a shot out to the man who did introduce the turkey to england during the sixteenth century. His name is William Strickland so thank him for your Christmas dinner if you're in england I guess. 12:55.89 S_ Granarius I don't have turkey at Christmas for sure. This is. 12:59.94 ALEX Yeah, apparently he is obviously so noted for this that on his family crust. There's a there's a turkey. 13:10.18 S_ Granarius I Mean why? why wouldn't there be I Guess they all the range of the time so were pineapples around that time period you see like pineapples cultures like coming up left right and Center in England It's like pineapples. So. 13:12.77 ALEX Yes, I guess you might as well own it. Um. 13:23.38 ALEX Very strange. Yeah, and obviously we know we really haven't talked about turkey but I don't know about you if you really come across Turkey very often. But I've always found it kind of. Hard to identify against chicken bones. Sometimes yeah of course. 13:40.27 S_ Granarius Um, no because again like a turkey if you don't want to find them until the Post- Meieval period So they don't come up like too often. But I think the get the giveaway is the massive size difference. So if it's something that's galiform but it's huge ok turkey. 13:54.00 ALEX Yeah, yeah, but yeah I mean obviously I think the issue is also I feel like domestic foul a lot of it tends to look very similar sometimes which is why. 13:58.21 S_ Granarius And then it's like oh that's just messed up my dating. 14:10.41 ALEX You know I hate to admit it. But sometimes you just got to write domestic fouls the identification and hope for the best. 14:15.74 S_ Granarius This is just the thing with birds in general because I mean like domestic foul. Okay, like between various speeches. It can be a little bit tricky but you can tell apart sort of like okay this is galaform. 14:27.29 ALEX Yeah, yeah for sure. 14:29.67 S_ Granarius But then everything else there are so many different species of wild birds and all like itdy biddi like tiny bones that unless you have like all of the reference material. You'll never like or something robin sized but like there's a million birds that are Robin sized so's like good luck. 14:45.84 ALEX Yeah, yeah, birds. Yeah, absolute Heroes too. As ah, the only thing you know the only thing that's only slightly worse than fish are birds as everyone knows so you know. 14:49.14 S_ Granarius And and hats off to who though all those are specialized in bird bones. You are heroes. 15:04.69 ALEX Not much we can do about that anyway, you know turkeys were obviously used for meat but they were actually also used for their feathers and bones and something that I actually had no idea about and this is extremely cool is that we have kind of some written texts about Aztec use of. Turkeys so there was a franciscan monk ah bernaino de saagoon who ah wrote probably one of the the earliest kind of ethnographic studies known as the florentine codex and he basically. Did these ethnographic studies of the aztecs during the sixteenth century and ah believe they even had some of some of the aztec people do some of the illustrations which is so cool and that's how we actually know how turkey was used in aztec cuisine. It was mainly roasted or boiled. It was sometimes served in a stew of corn or sometimes with ah a mole sauce and it was also often used as tamale filling so sounds good and our final. 16:13.12 S_ Granarius Ooh. 16:17.16 ALEX Species that we'll be talking about is sadly an extinct species. It is the Fuian dog also known as the yagin dog and it is a now Extinct domesticated canid unlike other domesticated dogs. Of Course. We've talked about at length if youre like on this up not on this episode but in previous episodes we've talked about domesticated dogs and they were mostly domesticated from the Gray Wolf Oh chorus which we did oh I didn't I Just realized I don't think I gave you a chance to say the Latin word for the the. 16:47.91 S_ Granarius Canis lupus. 16:55.46 S_ Granarius The Liope coolpas. Oh yes, this you're quite all right. 16:55.58 ALEX Quaigin dog. Thank you I'm so sorry for that Well to be fair, It's also the the same name for what the Fuigian dog was likely domesticated from which is the kopeo. 17:15.40 S_ Granarius Own Li Callopplex Cool peos. Okay so how was it? How was it domesticated So if it wasn't if it didn't speciate. 17:15.31 ALEX Which is also. Just like making you say it. 17:25.31 ALEX I Think it may have speciated and they just because it was an extinct species and we actually don't really have that much information about it. They may not have given it a specific or I must have misrote this which is probably the more likely thing. 17:42.70 S_ Granarius I Guess so maybe if they were just very tame but like they're not quite domesticate. You know like the so the reindeer it like I said domesticate but not really like. 17:44.48 ALEX Ah. 17:48.56 ALEX Yeah, it's funny. It's funny because we we just don't know that much there. There are some taxider made and obviously some remains so there has been kind of semi recently. There's been a lot of genetics work done on it to kind of look at. Where mostly domesticated from I think this is kind of recent that the kopeo has been noted as where domesticated from and the copeo is a species of south american Fox which okay to get back to this kind of confusing stuff wasn't actually a Fox. Or a true fox like the true Beaver it was more closely related to wolves and jackals. Everything is so confusing in the americas but yeah, so we don't actually have that much like ethnographic evidence as to how the fuigan dog was really used or why they were domesticated. They may have been used to domestic domestic ah domesticated to hunt otters and we don't even really know the exact reasons for their extermination other than they may have been too dangerous around livestock. But I just thought it was really interesting because you know you don't really get to talk about these extinct domestic. Did can is which there are few species. So. 19:04.74 S_ Granarius They're very cute because I've noticed like because the wild counterpart is alive and well. 19:08.82 ALEX Yeah, it's very it's very strange isn't it. 19:11.70 S_ Granarius Strange cause it's kind of if it's Fox size base got like the coloring like it's. 19:23.54 ALEX It's very confusing. The. 19:25.22 S_ Granarius It's It's a it's a, but it's a very cute papa. It does have a bit of a foxy face. 19:28.63 ALEX Yeah, it's um, theme of the episode. Everything is very confusing and I think oh. 19:33.74 S_ Granarius Um, it to sorry I was gonna say like to me it truly like looks like a cross between sort of a dog like a generic dog and a red Fox. 19:44.87 ALEX Um, yeah, it's like I said very confusing the zoo archeology of the Americas so I think as we kind of figure out what what this is. We will take a break and come back for the case studies.